Teams & Riders Tadej Pogačar discussion thread

[johnymax]

Well, that would have been a very different race. Moreover, I am not so sure it would have worked out that way regardless. TP had been in the wind more than PR, and had less willing participants to toe him to the line.

LOL about the insane engine.

I re-watched the stage and followed both riders closely. I'm not sure Pogi had been more in the wind than Rogla. Maybe if you just go with the accumulated time at the front of the group (I'm not sure that'd be the case though). But Roglič was in the wind for 20km straight (from 46km till 26km to go) where nobody gave him a single turn. While Pogi was never pulling for more than 2-3km a pull. All of Yates, Chaves, Valverde, Bilbao, Landa, Vansevenant, all of them were doing multiple pulls in the chasing group. I think it's harder to do 20km altogether full gas, than doing 1km, then taking a breather for a couple of minutes, then pulling for another 2km and again taking a breather and so on. You get the point.

 

[SafeBet]

This was a super performance, probably his biggest effort ever. The way he kept pulling that group around made me think he would collapse on Arrate but he never faltered. He even responded to a few attacks.

He made a mistake on the descent but yeah, sometimes young riders make mistakes and then they learn from them. Team strategy was also questionable.

 

[Salvarani]

But he did.
It was a strong performance, but not huge...

If the gap doesn’t happen on the descent. He does not get dropped. That’s what I’m saying. I think it was pretty obvious from my post what I meant.

If you disagree, cool.

 

[Red Rick]

This was a super performance, probably his biggest effort ever. The way he kept pulling that group around made me think he would collapse on Arrate but he never faltered. He even responded to a few attacks.

He made a mistake on the descent but yeah, sometimes young riders make mistakes and then they learn from them. Team strategy was also questionable.

Vuelta stage 19 was a bigger effort.

 

[SafeBet]

Vuelta stage 19 was a bigger effort.

Wasn't it way shorter though? I don't remember exactly.

 

[Salvarani]

I re-watched the stage and followed both riders closely. I'm not sure Pogi had been more in the wind than Rogla. Maybe if you just go with the accumulated time at the front of the group (I'm not sure that'd be the case though). But Roglič was in the wind for 20km straight (from 46km till 26km to go) where nobody gave him a single turn. While Pogi was never pulling for more than 2-3km a pull. All of Yates, Chaves, Valverde, Bilbao, Landa, Vansevenant, all of them were doing multiple pulls in the chasing group. I think it's harder to do 20km altogether full gas, than doing 1km, then taking a breather for a couple of minutes, then pulling for another 2km and again taking a breather and so on. You get the point.

Pog was also pulling the McNulty group on the descent, after the gap happened when Astana was going full gas, and towards the bottom of Krabelin. Then pacing the group and himself the whole climb of Krabelin. Dropping McNulty in the process, when he couldnt follow the pace. He went full gas for a lot kms. Where nobody was doing a single turn for him in the wind.

Yes, he had some "help" towards the last climb but they were all tired in that group. At moments I thought what is Pog riding for at this point. He was just dragging them along. It was good to get a podium out of it.

Roglic had a strong performance, but he also got it put on a platter for him. Im not saying that to knock him. How it unfolded was best case scenario for him going into the stage and he was strong enough to execute it. Kudos.

He did get a lot of help from Gaudu in the end though and if Gaudu is not that strong like he was yesterday, it probably would have been closer I think.

And if the gap doesnt happen on the descent. I dont think Roglic drops Pog. I think it would have only been them left fighting for the stage.

 

[Red Rick]

Wasn't it way shorter though? I don't remember exactly.

40km all solo putting 1'30+ into the competition while domestiques were chasing for much of it.

 

[SafeBet]

40km all solo putting 1'30+ into the competition while domestiques were chasing for much of it.

Lol yeah that was insane. I thought it was around 20 km.

 

[SafeBet]

Anyway, last 10 stage races:

2019 California 1st
2019 Slovenia 4th
2019 Vuelta 3rd
2020 Valenciana 1st
2020 UAE 2nd
2020 Dauphine 4th
2020 Tour 1st
2021 UAE 1st
2021 Tirreno 1st
2021 Itzulia 3rd

5 wins, 8 podiums.

 

[Netserk]

Might as well add Algarve and Itzulia from 2019.

 

[CyclistAbi]

He'll be OK.

 

[Tinnekeisabella]

I personally feel he was the strongest rider yesterday...the way he pulled that group...
But he had the bad luck that that ineos rider left that gap in the decent.

I am sure he will learn from this to be even more attentive and I hope that UAE has learned that Tadej is always their strongest rider in the peloton. I respect Tadej for pulling for Mcnulty and giving it a chance, but Tadej is just on another level.

I do hope his team gets it together for the Tour too. Hirschi could not even bridge the gap on the flat, not seen a lot of Majka this season either...

 

[Eeslliw]

Hirschi could not even bridge the gap on the flat.

Nobody could do that. Even prime Tony Martin or Fabian couldn't. When 3 and more guys go all out and work together and rotate...game over vs one rider pulling behind.

 

[Big Doopie]

i believe pog is the stronger rider.

however, whether he was actually stronger yesterday -- not sure, tbh. Rog, i have to admit, did an amazing ride.

now, rog did do 20kms on his own before getting help. however, BEFORE that he was being pulled along by teammates and astana. meanwhile pog pulled almost alone (apart from a brief respite from hirshi). so before rog di his massive ITT pull, pog had already been hitting the wind for many KMs. Pog then got minimal assistance the rest of the way. so it is not clear who between the two spent the most of the time in the wind...

if anything, I would lean towards pog.

kind of a serious fail in team tactics.

had pog simply been allowed to follow rog, he could have sat on while rog had to make the difference with mcnulty at first. or rog may have not pushed on as much knowing pog was simply sitting there fearing that he was opening himself up for a later counter from pog...

 

[Tinnekeisabella]

Nobody could do that. Even prime Tony Martin or Fabian couldn't. When 3 and more guys go all out and work together and rotate...game over vs one rider pulling behind.

Ok, you are right, but Hirschi should have at least being able to pull longer/gotten them a little closer. He was gone pretty fast. And I know it is early season, but his main goals are coming up soon with the ardennes clasics. I think UAE saw Hirschi in a role as Van Aert in the tour and i am not sure he can pull that off.

 

[Netserk]

Ok, you are right, but Hirschi should have at least being able to pull longer/gotten them a little closer. He was gone pretty fast. And I know it is early season, but his main goals are coming up soon with the ardennes clasics. I think UAE saw Hirschi in a role as Van Aert in the tour and i am not sure he can pull that off.

He lasted until Krabelin. As long as you could expect.

 

[Blanco]

I think UAE saw Hirschi in a role as Van Aert in the tour and i am not sure he can pull that off.

He can't. At the moment nobody can.

 

[Oldermanish]

i believe pog is the stronger rider.

however, whether he was actually stronger yesterday -- not sure, tbh. Rog, i have to admit, did an amazing ride.

now, rog did do 20kms on his own before getting help. however, BEFORE that he was being pulled along by teammates and astana. meanwhile pog pulled almost alone (apart from a brief respite from hirshi). so before rog di his massive ITT pull, pog had already been hitting the wind for many KMs. Pog then got minimal assistance the rest of the way. so it is not clear who between the two spent the most of the time in the wind...

if anything, I would lean towards pog.

kind of a serious fail in team tactics.

had pog simply been allowed to follow rog, he could have sat on while rog had to make the difference with mcnulty at first. or rog may have not pushed on as much knowing pog was simply sitting there fearing that he was opening himself up for a later counter from pog...

Smarter is as smarter does and Roglic has lost several times making seemingly minor mistakes that grew. He's going to use whatever strengths JV has and exploit the tactics of others as well. That's how you win many, many bike races. That you would "have to admit" he's good is a bias of a fan. I'm a fan of Pogi but he is learning and his team is the variable to his success. I'm also a fan of Roglic as he's pretty much a self-made rider. Enjoy both of them; in the end it is a team sport for GT's.

 

[Big Doopie]

Smarter is as smarter does and Roglic has lost several times making seemingly minor mistakes that grew. He's going to use whatever strengths JV has and exploit the tactics of others as well. That's how you win many, many bike races. That you would "have to admit" he's good is a bias of a fan. I'm a fan of Pogi but he is learning and his team is the variable to his success. I'm also a fan of Roglic as he's pretty much a self-made rider. Enjoy both of them; in the end it is a team sport for GT's.

lordy, getting a little picky aren’t we?

I used that phrase because I had just said I thought Pog was the better rider (and not because I am a fan. And also if you read any of my other posts you would also see that I had picked Pog to win and gave kudos for rog being the better rider and doing an amazing ride and better tactics by far... I also made a point of saying how I admired Rog’ resilience and particularly his good sportsmanship.

seems like you were really LOOKING for someone to argue with...

in terms of fandom, I actually hope that as soon as next summer Remco destroys two-time TDF winner Pog in an epic duel. So, no, not really a Pog fan, he just seems so freaking talented.

 

[johnymax]

i believe pog is the stronger rider.

however, whether he was actually stronger yesterday -- not sure, tbh. Rog, i have to admit, did an amazing ride.

now, rog did do 20kms on his own before getting help. however, BEFORE that he was being pulled along by teammates and astana. meanwhile pog pulled almost alone (apart from a brief respite from hirshi). so before rog di his massive ITT pull, pog had already been hitting the wind for many KMs. Pog then got minimal assistance the rest of the way. so it is not clear who between the two spent the most of the time in the wind...

if anything, I would lean towards pog.

kind of a serious fail in team tactics.

had pog simply been allowed to follow rog, he could have sat on while rog had to make the difference with mcnulty at first. or rog may have not pushed on as much knowing pog was simply sitting there fearing that he was opening himself up for a later counter from pog...

I also can't say who was stronger yesterday. Like I said many times, the two are pretty evenly matched at the moment. My personal opinion is that Pogi is a little better in races with high attrition such as was Tirreno stage 5 and yesterday's stage for example, but as we saw, Roglič is no slouch in this kind of race either.

But it's not true that Pogi pulled almost alone before Roglič did his massive 20km TT. Pogi pulled for maybe 1km on the flat in the valley, but Hirschi was immediately called back and then it was him who pulled till the beginning of the final climb around 48km to go. Then it was Pogi who went on the front and pulled on the climb for about 1.5km until McNulty couldn't follow anymore. Then it was Chaves and Yates who went at the front and Pogi was following them for about one km or so. Proof:

View: https://youtu.be/28LsxlQHdDQ


Later especially Yates gave some longer turns towards the top of the Krabelin climb and on the false flat afterwards. Like I said, all of Yates, Chaves, Landa, Bilbao, Vansevenant, Valverde gave their contribution. Pogi did the vast majority of work, there's not denying that, but he was never pulling for more than a couple of minutes straight. On the other hand Roglič was for almost 30min straight in the wind without looking back.

In the last 25km Pogi did more work than Rogla, I agree with that. Both groups were still taking turns but Pogi was doing by far the longest ones, while the trio in front of the race were working pretty well together. On the last climb it was mainly Gaudu who pushed the pace as we saw and Roglič was following him for the vast majority of the climb.

 

[Oldermanish]

lordy, getting a little picky aren’t we?

I used that phrase because I had just said I thought Pog was the better rider (and not because I am a fan. And also if you read any of my other posts you would also see that I had picked Pog to win and gave kudos for rog being the better rider and doing an amazing ride and better tactics by far... I also made a point of saying how I admired Rog’ resilience and particularly his good sportsmanship.

seems like you were really LOOKING for someone to argue with...

in terms of fandom, I actually hope that as soon as next summer Remco destroys two-time TDF winner Pog in an epic duel. So, no, not really a Pog fan, he just seems so freaking talented.

Absolutely not looking to pick a fight. I do find some fans are a bit unreasonable and look for facts to make a point.
By the way, is Remco racing yet?

 

[Bolder]

I also can't say who was stronger yesterday.

I thought Roglic was at least as strong -- TP pulled for a long time, sure, but Roglic was also mostly pulling Gaudu and Carthy until the base of the final climb. Roglic was able to extend the lead until a few guys like Valverde and Yates offered some half-hearted pulls...

...as an aside, i thought Valverde raced too conservatively for someone who looked in great shape, knew the roads and might be in his last year (or two -- he's still too young to win the Vuelta again, according to pappy Horner...). I would have loved to see him launch with intent, even if he had to take turns with Pogacar -- they might have been able to catch Roglic...

 

[Rackham]

I thought Roglic was at least as strong -- TP pulled for a long time, sure, but Roglic was also mostly pulling Gaudu and Carthy until the base of the final climb. Roglic was able to extend the lead until a few guys like Valverde and Yates offered some half-hearted pulls...

...as an aside, i thought Valverde raced too conservatively for someone who looked in great shape, knew the roads and might be in his last year (or two -- he's still too young to win the Vuelta again, according to pappy Horner...). I would have loved to see him launch with intent, even if he had to take turns with Pogacar -- they might have been able to catch Roglic...

I'm thinking "the" turning point might have been when Roglic dropped Valverde at the top of Krabelin. Because Valverde would have caused Gaudu problems for a prospective stage win & the cohesion of the 4 man group would have been an issue IMO. But it's just speculation really.

As for "who" was stronger between Roglic & Pogacar, it's difficult to judge. But the last part of the Krabelin ascent from Roglic & following 10-15km where he pulled a minute gap by himself was pretty impressive.

What we got was two legendary riders (& a supporting cast of big names, some also legendary like Valverde) giving us the craziest stage race I've seen in a long time. I'm sure Pogacar fans will get loads of wins in the future but stages like Saturday don't do his CV a disservice either. It all adds to the folklore of a cyclist's career. Just as Paris-Nice remains an epic moment in Primoz's career.

 

[johnymax]

I thought Roglic was at least as strong -- TP pulled for a long time, sure, but Roglic was also mostly pulling Gaudu and Carthy until the base of the final climb. Roglic was able to extend the lead until a few guys like Valverde and Yates offered some half-hearted pulls...

...as an aside, i thought Valverde raced too conservatively for someone who looked in great shape, knew the roads and might be in his last year (or two -- he's still too young to win the Vuelta again, according to pappy Horner...). I would have loved to see him launch with intent, even if he had to take turns with Pogacar -- they might have been able to catch Roglic...

I watched the stage for the 3rd time. Tadej actually had more help in the chase than I initially thought and more than some people suggest. His most impressive stretch IMO came approaching the final climb and in the first couple of km of that final climb to Arrate, where he was pulling for about 5km alone. In that stretch he gained about 10-15s on the 3 men in front. Everybody was looking dead, but he looked almost like he was getting stronger. He really is like a duracell bunny, he never gets tired. Then Valverde attacked with 5km to go.

I timed the last ascent for both groups and Gaudu and Roglic actually did the climb around 5s faster (I stopped at around 2km to go, before the little descent to the finish began).

As for Valverde. I don't know. He couldn't follow Roglic acceleration on Krabelin and was dropped just a couple of hundred meters before the top, which suggests he was on the limit there. He did help with the chase, but less than Pogi (of course), Yates and probably about the same as Vansevenant, but more than Landa. He was the only one beside Pogi, who tried with a couple of attacks to get rid of the passengers (which in my opinion was a reasonable idea). He attacked again 5km to go on the climb and won the sprint for 3rd. I don't think he could have done much more and I'm not sure how he could have played it differently. His gamble was: help a little but not to much, hope the others will chase strongly enough, hope the trio up front collapses like Carthy did, don't get dropped by anybody and win the sprint. A lot of hope involved

 

[Red Rick]

He can't. At the moment nobody can.

Tbh I think Van Aert might have value as secondary GT contender/tactical card if they really wanna abuse Poggers weaker team. Otherwise Poggers can still just babysit Roglic and go mano a mano in the end.