Teams & Riders Tadej Pogačar discussion thread

[Salvarani]

Dont think he should do the Vuelta.

Take some time off. Reset.

Try to win Lombardia again.

 

[YavorD]

Maybe he was simply overconfident. But he was even before 11th stage. Burning energy on every corner. I suspect he needed bonus seconds since team was rubbish.

Vingo was bailed out by WVA on cobbles stage as difference prior stage 11 could be much higher. After stage 11 tour was his to loose. Taking nothing away from him but Pogi had to attack similar form rider and much stronger team. That meant that he simply burned himself out.

I had a feeling that UAE went all in on stage 17 and kinda expected counterpunch today.

Really hope Pogi stays motivated and try to win ITT.

Agree on everything.
Pretty sure Pog is still the better rider overall. Put them 1 on 1, no teams whatsoever in this route, Pog wins 9 of 10.

 

[yaco]

I expect Pogacar will ride the Giro in 2023 and accept Vegni's fistful of dollars - Nothing wrong with him missing the TDF in 2023.

 

[ppanther92]

I expect Pogacar will ride the Giro in 2023 and accept Vegni's fistful of dollars - Nothing wrong with him missing the TDF in 2023.

That’s something I can’t imagine.

 

[JosefK]

Pog showing glimpses of "merely human" status at the 2022 TDF. What an incredible rider. So three stage wins and a runner-up spot on GC will be an "off year" for him. Looking forward to 2023 and this year's remaining big one-day races.

 

[Unterlenkerfahrend]

Turns out the doubters who were trying to contain the hype were right all along. He really is the next Ullrich, just that his baby fat isn't coming from wine or cookies but from too much trolling on twitter.
Just like in 98 he had to learn a couple of lessons but apart from this weird super show yesterday his team really was terrible. Screw them and that clown Gianetti, if he wants to be LeGoat he has to take his talents to South Beach Ineos, otherwise he'll be dominated by Aqua Chicken for years to come.

I hope he does Vuelta.

 

[Escarabajo]

That’s something I can’t imagine.

Me either. Especially now that he lost. He will now come back with Vengeance!!

 

[Escarabajo]

Pog is a different Beast, because he didn't just win the Tour, but numerous other races of noteworthy merit. He was simply a victim of his team, bad tactics on a crucial day and a rival as strong as him. He will be back. His story doesn't end here.

I think there was bad tactics in the first 10 days as well, not just on Stage 11.

 

[Lorzenz08]

Maybe he was simply overconfident. But he was even before 11th stage. Burning energy on every corner. I suspect he needed bonus seconds since team was rubbish.

Vingo was bailed out by WVA on cobbles stage as difference prior stage 11 could be much higher. After stage 11 tour was his to loose. Taking nothing away from him but Pogi had to attack similar form rider and much stronger team. That meant that he simply burned himself out.

I had a feeling that UAE went all in on stage 17 and kinda expected counterpunch today.

Really hope Pogi stays motivated and try to win ITT.

I think he was a bit naive concerning JV. He didn't think they would try to set him up for a trap. When Roglic went out, I think he didn't think too much on the future, he just thought " oh Roglic attacking, I'm going to close it..". He didn't think about Vingo at that time, that he should save energy in case Vingo attacks later on.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Good performance today on stage 18. There will be plenty of opportunities left to go mano-a-mano with Jonas in the future. Regardless on who wins this Tour edition.

 

[Gigs_98]

Am I the only one still thinking responding to Roglic was the right move at the time? I mean hindsight is great and all, but at the time I was 100% convinced he did the right thing and even now I think it's questionable whether he would have benefited from just letting him go. Like, if he doesn't follow Roglic, I guess the plan is to only watch Vingegaard. But if he only watches Vingegaard I feel like there is a scenario where Roglic might suddenly be in virtual yellow on the Galibier, with Van Aert up the road, which might have forced him to chase even harder. It's not like he was completely emptying himself at that time. He responded to a few attacks and then set a reasonably high pace and I feel like that's about the best thing he could have done (maybe he should have set a slightly lower pace). Gifting Roglic 5 minutes because with hindsight you know he likely still could have clawed that back just isn't a reasonable tactic.

 

[DoYouEvenRideBruh]

Am I the only one still thinking responding to Roglic was the right move at the time? I mean hindsight is great and all, but at the time I was 100% convinced he did the right thing and even now I think it's questionable whether he would have benefited from just letting him go. Like, if he doesn't follow Roglic, I guess the plan is to only watch Vingegaard. But if he only watches Vingegaard I feel like there is a scenario where Roglic might suddenly be in virtual yellow on the Galibier, with Van Aert up the road, which might have forced him to chase even harder. It's not like he was completely emptying himself at that time. He responded to a few attacks and then set a reasonably high pace and I feel like that's about the best thing he could have done (maybe he should have set a slightly lower pace). Gifting Roglic 5 minutes because with hindsight you know he likely still could have clawed that back just isn't a reasonable tactic.

No, I agree. You just don't know on Galibier that Rogla doesn't have it. Without teammates you gotta do the dirty work yourself, and so he did.

He probably believed he would be able to match Vingo on Granon even after those efforts, unless he was bluffing big time in the valley. At the end of the day, he had never cracked before on a mountain. Next year, I'm sure he won't be as easy for Jumbo to crack him, especially if UAE manages to assemble a decent squad.

 

[Red Rick]

Am I the only one still thinking responding to Roglic was the right move at the time? I mean hindsight is great and all, but at the time I was 100% convinced he did the right thing and even now I think it's questionable whether he would have benefited from just letting him go. Like, if he doesn't follow Roglic, I guess the plan is to only watch Vingegaard. But if he only watches Vingegaard I feel like there is a scenario where Roglic might suddenly be in virtual yellow on the Galibier, with Van Aert up the road, which might have forced him to chase even harder. It's not like he was completely emptying himself at that time. He responded to a few attacks and then set a reasonably high pace and I feel like that's about the best thing he could have done (maybe he should have set a slightly lower pace). Gifting Roglic 5 minutes because with hindsight you know he likely still could have clawed that back just isn't a reasonable tactic.

Probably not, but I really think it was a terrible move. You have to gamble one way, and with domestiques not too far behind you I think it would be a lot better off betting against Roglic than betting against Vingegaard at that stage in the race.

 

[geisterhome]

Am I the only one still thinking responding to Roglic was the right move at the time? I mean hindsight is great and all, but at the time I was 100% convinced he did the right thing and even now I think it's questionable whether he would have benefited from just letting him go. Like, if he doesn't follow Roglic, I guess the plan is to only watch Vingegaard. But if he only watches Vingegaard I feel like there is a scenario where Roglic might suddenly be in virtual yellow on the Galibier, with Van Aert up the road, which might have forced him to chase even harder. It's not like he was completely emptying himself at that time. He responded to a few attacks and then set a reasonably high pace and I feel like that's about the best thing he could have done (maybe he should have set a slightly lower pace). Gifting Roglic 5 minutes because with hindsight you know he likely still could have clawed that back just isn't a reasonable tactic.

He would have had Majka and Soler to pace after Roglic, they werent far off and maybe another team like Ineos would have joined in. If things really got out of hand he could have gone all out on the final climb.

That approach would have carried little risk. As it was also very likely that Roglic wasn't at 100% after his crash.
A minor gamble I guess most GC riders would gladly take, unless they were really convinced to be the best in the field by a mile and didn't need to preserve any energy.

I would still take Pogacar as a favorite over Vingegaard for the next TdF. If he just plays it a bit smarter. I believe he will take some time off him in the TTs and especially sprints. I don't think Vingegaard can distance him on the climbs if Pogacar sticks to wheelsucking till 100m to the finish line.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Stage 11 was a stage that usually happens once per an edition or more likely doesn't happen at all. If it happens you can discuss it for 50 years to come and still there are angles left to be discussed. One thing such stage does. When it does happen. It's more or less impossible to undo it.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Stage 11 likely would not happen if UAE had a stronger team. Did they really bring all the best riders to this race? The way he raced in yellow wasn't the best choice. A bit greedy for some unimportant goals. Before this stage he already acknowledged Vingegaard is the man to beat. As Roglič wasn't his usual self due to injuries. As Vingegaard was behind in GC here Pogačar could have made a different decision and not to pull for him. After realizing Roglič is out of contention. But the idea likely was he can crack Vingegaard. And that turned out not to be it. As it was an ambush.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Personally i will wait for a couple more races. Where they face each other. To make some final conclusion. As OK JV could use a number game on stage 11 and wear Pogačar down. It clearly worked as the type of cyclists that beat him on that stage usually don't come close. Still somehow i find Vingegaards level a bit strange. On some other stages. Pogačar likely wasn't in bad shape. Due to the rest of the field exploding each time they went all in.

For me that will be an interesting observation. Likely we will have to wait for a while to see some of that.

 

[Ripper]

I am 100% Convinced that Tadej knows exactly how big of a gap he can have comfortably and win this thing. I think he also know Jonas was last year the only one to really match and drop him when Pogi was dominating... Pogi's been testing things this whole time with the team and taking notes. given that, I fully believe Tadej is enjoying not being in the lead, giving his friends a chance to win stages, while just keeping that 2 minute gap going.
In short, he will dominate the rest of this week, and really the only thing that could hold him back is the heat... which he hates, but he also seems the thrive in. Look if you took Wout and Jonas together, they'd have a chance, but the way tadej was at the start of this this season, I dont think now is the time he's gonna start fading. its his last time to be in white, and he always does great in it. So here's to an awesome week.
But lets be real, Im really just waiting to see him cheering for Urska in the motorhome when this is all over.

Lol

 

[Ripper]

Personally i will wait for a couple more races. Where they face each other. To make some final conclusion. As OK JV could use a number game on stage 11 and wear Pogačar down. It clearly worked as the type of cyclists that beat him on that stage usually don't come close. Still somehow i find Vingegaards level a bit strange. On some other stages. Pogačar likely wasn't in bad shape. Due to the rest of the field exploding each time they went all in.

For me that will be an interesting observation. Likely we will have to wait for a while to see some of that.

Pogo was actually quite strong. The gap between him and third place is actually not too different from last year's gap from first to second. Vingo was just stronger, had a stronger team, the team deployed tactically much better than UAE, and of course there is stage 11.

 

[Ripper]

Stage 11 likely would not happen if UAE had a stronger team. Did they really bring all the best riders to this race? The way he raced in yellow wasn't the best choice. A bit greedy for some unimportant goals. Before this stage he already acknowledged Vingegaard is the man to beat. As Roglič wasn't his usual self due to injuries. As Vingegaard was behind in GC here Pogačar could have made a different decision and not to pull for him. After realizing Roglič is out of contention. But the idea likely was he can crack Vingegaard. And that turned out not to be it. As it was an ambush.

Possibly you are correct. But it also could have been avoided with much better tactics. And UAE have repeatedly shown that as a team they are not as strong the sum of their parts would suggest.

Edit - with the sole exception being stage 17

 

[Ripper]

Probably not, but I really think it was a terrible move. You have to gamble one way, and with domestiques not too far behind you I think it would be a lot better off betting against Roglic than betting against Vingegaard at that stage in the race.

It was indeed tactically a complete blunder. I thought so at the time, and hindsight only reinforces it about 100 times. He had two support teammates not far away, and Roglic was highly questionable. Pogo also made it clear that he thought his main threat was vingo. So really, there was one person to mark; a small gamble to make, but not as big a gamble as burning all of your matches. Probably a lesson learned there.

 

[Extinction]

Am I the only one still thinking responding to Roglic was the right move at the time? I mean hindsight is great and all, but at the time I was 100% convinced he did the right thing and even now I think it's questionable whether he would have benefited from just letting him go. Like, if he doesn't follow Roglic, I guess the plan is to only watch Vingegaard. But if he only watches Vingegaard I feel like there is a scenario where Roglic might suddenly be in virtual yellow on the Galibier, with Van Aert up the road, which might have forced him to chase even harder. It's not like he was completely emptying himself at that time. He responded to a few attacks and then set a reasonably high pace and I feel like that's about the best thing he could have done (maybe he should have set a slightly lower pace). Gifting Roglic 5 minutes because with hindsight you know he likely still could have clawed that back just isn't a reasonable tactic.

Yea, but when Roglic crashed and Vingegaard dropped his chain, Jumbo clearly showed which horse it was betting on. So Roglic's attack on the Galibier was clearly as a decoy to draw Pogi out and set up Vingegaard for a counter attack. Plus Roglic was hurt, so it would have been best to let him go only to see him fade on the Granon. Pogi should only have marked Vingegaard, because in marking Roglic too (plus needlessly giving a dig on the Galibier) he also burnt the remnants of his team, in addition to setting himself up to be Vingegaard stomped. As has also been pointed out, Tadej seems to have expended too much energy from the start of the Tour; energy, as it turns out, he needed on stage 11. The debacle done, Pogacar was forced to continue to burn matches for the rest of the Tour and so the Hautecam result was rather a foregone conclusion. Against this Vingegaard and this Jumbo he will have to race a whole lot smarter in the future, however this may defy his aggressive nature, if he has a chance at victory. The trouble was last year's Tour and his achievments since gave him (perhaps above all to himself, detrimentally) an aura of invincibility. But the new Merckx, the new Cannible, has finally met his match. It will be interesting to see what he will take from this experience. Will it make him more resolute or more conservative? Only time will tell.

 

[IndurainsTdF1994]

A rivalry for the history books in the making... Next 10 years will be more fun than we thought.

 

[Miha81]

At the end having strong team is a must if you face similary strong rider.

In first 10 stages Pogi was burning big amounts of energy getting that half a minute gap (little return for the energy spent).

We all know what happened on stage 11 when he was isolated from his own team basically at the start of stage defending against 2 sometimes even 4 JV riders. Looked like lonely bee attacked by group of wasps TBH.

As soon as clock was reversed he had to attack relentlessly and except "all in" stage 17 his helpers (Majka excluded) were nowhere to be seen.

JV had relatively simple tactic. Glue Vinge on Pogi's wheel, send WVA into breakaway (if things somehow go south), have one or two domestiques ready when needed. All JV team looked like everything is under control and Pogi was burning matches day after day. After what I seen from stage 12 on I was surprised that he did not overcooked himself again on stage 18.

 

[cen]

Without most of his team MIA (especially Bennet very early) I think the deficit is much smaller and possibly in the ITT comeback range. Jumbo was a bit luckier to keep their team together for longer and having mutant WvA in there.