Teams & Riders Tadej Pogačar discussion thread

[Big Doopie]

Tbf, I did say it was a bad comparison. But I’ll pass some time lightly defending it anyways.

Pogacar and Contador = GT prodigies who show panache and love to attack, while being good at climbs and ITTs. Pogi obviously better at classics by a lot, but let’s see if Pogi wins 9 GTs.

Vingo and Froome both exploded out of obscurity into dominance without the early promise of a Remco or Pogi.

Remco and Nibali was the biggest stretch but he’s the third of the big group who is more classics and less Gt oriented of the other two and considered less of a proven climber (although both Nibali in 2014 Tour and Remco in Vuelta would argue against that general assessment). Remco is better than Nibali at this point.

I know you have clinic based reasons to dislike Contador, but, honestly, I’m not sure how you can be so adamant about some in one direction and some in the other.

All good.

I also realize you were discussing style and form and not necessarily strength/class. Nibali is indeed the closest to Remco because he is the only one who could win one day races as well. Then again Pog does that and contador never did.

Everything is relative:

Froome > Nibali > Contador > Armstrong (by far!) as far as I am concerned. Timetable of successes matters. Where in the history of cycling their greatest successes took place etc. But one can have doubts about all.

But none have anything like the class of either Pog or Remco. Vingo is up for debate as he may end up being a more standard GT winner rather than the other two who appear more precocious, all around and, frankly, exciting.

 

[Andy schleck]

He never recovered from the Granon. This has been well covered here. Its only my opinion, but Pogi is by far the superior talent. 2022 TdF was an aberration he will learn from. Vingo and JV can do their best they won't have enough.

Pogacar did one of his best performances ever on col des spandelles and hautacam. He was in top shape. He also did a great final TT, he finished in third place.

 

[Andy schleck]

For some people it's just difficult to accept that maybe Pogacar does have his weaknesses. Don't forget that in 2021 Vingegaard already dropped Pogacar on Ventoux. The harder the stage, and the longer the climbs, the better it is for Vingegaard. Even more so if the climbs are on altitude. And yeah, there he probably is a little better than Pogacar. No shame in that, you can't be the best at everything.

It reminde me of remco fans. They are always looking for justifications and excuses to justify when pogacar or remco lose. Of course sometimes they will lose, because they also have weaknesses, they are humans, and sometimes they face talented riders.

 

[Extinction]

True that Remco is better than Yates, but that doesn’t make it likely that Teddy is avoiding him. I doubt he cares about Remco at this point, who beat an injured Roglic and confidence deflated Mas. Now if Remco had beaten Roglic at 100%, then I think he would be worried, but that’s not the case.

Despite his defeat at the TDF last year, Pogacar is still the benchmark at this point. He’s not going to worry about a guy who is targeting the Giro. Right now, the only guys I could see him avoiding would be Jonás and/or Roglic (were he not also targeting the Giro) because he knows they can beat him. I mean… if he were worried about avoiding a rider, then Bernal would be on the same level as Remco at this point since they are both targeting the TDF, and Bernal was scheduled to start the Ruta del Sol until his last minute withdrawal.

We know the western Euro media and podcasters are obsessed with Remco because he’s a major talent and who knows how good he could be, but he’s not Pogacar yet, nor is he a direct threat.

I wasn't talking about Pog being concerned about Remco, but Remco's level versus Yates as per your post. Pogacar has been starting his seasons at an extremely high level, so I think Liege will be interesting in terms of the confrontation between he and Remco, as both should be on similar terms of form. I don't agree with your assessment of the competition at the Vuelta, but Remco will have a chance to prove himself again at the Giro. So last year is now moot and assessments will be updated. Bernal is burdened with issues, so isn't the "Messi of cycling" he was once touted to be and, in any case, isn't at Pog's level. I thus don't think Pog has anyone one his mind for the Tour but Vingegaard.

 

[Andy schleck]

Likely that is the whole idea behind this move. For Pogi to get Jonas alone. And i guess for all involved to get some answers. Obviously everything geared towards the Tour. Would be interesting if JV team roster would change on such short notice. Or for Jonas to do TA instead. But highly likely nothing like that will happen and lets just enjoy this early spring campaign.

Pogi already got vingegaard alone on peyresourde stage with mcnulty, they stayed just the two when pogi attacked on alpe d huez, the same happened on spandelles/hautacam stage.
On granon stage pogacar really got caught in a trap by jumbo, but even a mano a mano, i believe pogacar would lose 40/50 seconds to vingegaard on granon.

 

[Extinction]

All good.

I also realize you were discussing style and form and not necessarily strength/class. Nibali is indeed the closest to Remco because he is the only one who could win one day races as well. Then again Pog does that and contador never did.

Everything is relative:

Froome > Nibali > Contador > Armstrong (by far!) as far as I am concerned. Timetable of successes matters. Where in the history of cycling their greatest successes took place etc. But one can have doubts about all.

But none have anything like the class of either Pog or Remco. Vingo is up for debate as he may end up being a more standard GT winner rather than the other two who appear more precocious, all around and, frankly, exciting.

Leaving asside Froome's parenthesis, between Barloworld and the present, which can't be discussed here, I find it interesting you have more beef with Contador, while Nibali isn't even given a thought. Contador's class, and I recall how in Italy he was looked upon at the 2008 and 2011 Giros with almost reverence, was special. Nibili didn't have that during his career. Nibali never went into the Tour as the outright favorite and never was King. Nibali has two Italian monuments and 4 GTs to Contador's 9/7.

Pog and Remco have been prodigous in an era during which the sophistication of preparation, materials and machines has risen the general level even higher than before, which makes it all even more impressive. But each generation develops differently and the current one has certainly broken the mold of learning the ropes and paying your dues in the first years as a pro. They have arrived ready-made to win top races, Pog even more than Remco.

 

[yaco]

When, last year?

2018.

 

[Extinction]

2018.

Vintage 2018? And Thomas won the Tour.

 

[theyoungest]

He crashed during the 2017 Tour des Fjords in Norway and broke his leg. While he was recovring, he took the job at the fish factory, where he worked for six hours a day and trained for about six hours afterwards (he probably trained less in the beginning).

According to himself, he still worked there in the summer of 2018. Which is the year before he turned pro with Jumbo. In the same year I remember seeing Pogacar in the Tour of Slovenia and races like that. Fair to say that he was a little ahead in his development. I think we can agree that Vingegaard is maybe more of a late bloomer.

 

[Netserk]

He crashed during the 2017 Tour des Fjords in Norway and broke his leg. While he was recovring, he took the job at the fish factory, where he worked for six hours a day and trained for about six hours afterwards (he probably trained less in the beginning).

And iirc, it was his DS who got him the job in order to impose more structure on his daily rhythm.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

According to himself, he still worked there in the summer of 2018. Which is the year before he turned pro with Jumbo. In the same year I remember seeing Pogacar in the Tour of Slovenia and races like that. Fair to say that he was a little ahead in his development. I think we can agree that Vingegaard is maybe more of a late bloomer.

I don't know the exact date he stopped working there, but he set the Coll de Rates record on a training camp in March and started riding races again afterwards, so he defintiely wasn't working there six hours every day by then.

I'm not saying the leg injury didn't hamper his development at the time, it clearly did, but I don't think it has any affect on how he rides today or on how long he'll be able to keep his current level. It's a definitely a different situation for his compatriot Anthon Charmig who quit cycling altogether around the same time as Vingegaard's injury and didn't really ride for a couple of years.

 

[Lequack]

And iirc, it was his DS who got him the job in order to impose more structure on his daily rhythm.

And where he learned the secrets of fish.

 

[Red Rick]

And iirc, it was his DS who got him the job in order to impose more structure on his daily rhythm.

Fish factory was marginal gains all along?

 

[Lequack]

Fish factory was marginal gains all along?

Next they'll tell us that Froome isn't really African.

 

[frisenfruitig]

All good.

I also realize you were discussing style and form and not necessarily strength/class. Nibali is indeed the closest to Remco because he is the only one who could win one day races as well. Then again Pog does that and contador never did.

Everything is relative:

Froome > Nibali > Contador > Armstrong (by far!) as far as I am concerned. Timetable of successes matters. Where in the history of cycling their greatest successes took place etc. But one can have doubts about all.

But none have anything like the class of either Pog or Remco. Vingo is up for debate as he may end up being a more standard GT winner rather than the other two who appear more precocious, all around and, frankly, exciting.

Froome and Nibali above Armstrong "by far"? What? I know he was a jerk and everything but he did win the tour 7 times in a row plus WC etc. Considering the clinic rules it's hard to discuss him but we all know what everyone was doing during that era. He was still the best of his generation. Even during his comeback he got a 3rd place against the new generation. Feels kinda weird saying that about that douchebag but as an athlete he wasn't worse than Froome/Nibali/Contador.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Pogi already got vingegaard alone on peyresourde stage with mcnulty, they stayed just the two when pogi attacked on alpe d huez, the same happened on spandelles/hautacam stage.
On granon stage pogacar really got caught in a trap by jumbo, but even a mano a mano, i believe pogacar would lose 40/50 seconds to vingegaard on granon.

That is rather moot. But i agree that we should get more clear answers this season. Tour 2022 was basically over on stage 11. Jonas didn't have to do much more after. Then follow the wheel. Pogi wearing himself down with constant and fruitless attacking. And on stage 11 for sure Jonas didn't crack Pogi alone. But OK winners write the history. So he likely did it single-handedly. Or maybe riding with a single foot? Anyway. About that stage where two glorified wheelsuckers denied the real mano to take the win. Better not to put much highlight on that. Not their proudest moment.

All in all we should get more clear answers in the season 2023 and on races like PN and at the Tour. It would be hard to argue both PN or the Tour doesn't suit Jonas. And due to what is known so far i do expect some real mano-a-mano fighting this season. In between them. Things like gaining an advantage to come down to a solo attack effort. Not sure if van Aert will be such a factor at Tour 2023. Due to the profiles. And let the best one win.

 

[Big Doopie]

Leaving asside Froome's parenthesis, between Barloworld and the present, which can't be discussed here, I find it interesting you have more beef with Contador, while Nibali isn't even given a thought. Contador's class, and I recall how in Italy he was looked upon at the 2008 and 2011 Giros with almost reverence, was special. Nibili didn't have that during his career. Nibali never went into the Tour as the outright favorite and never was King. Nibali has two Italian monuments and 4 GTs to Contador's 9/7.

I believe 2011 to be a bit of a watershed. Albeit one where things bleed over for sure. So results that predate that are not high in my estimation whatsoever. One of the reasons I think very little of the Schleck brothers. If you look at it like that then Nibali definitely trumps Contador (and btw I am far from being a Nibali fan). It really has nothing to do with the amount of GTs they have won in total. I hope that at least explains how I look at things even if no one has to agree with me.

 

[Big Doopie]

He was still the best of his generation.

semi-pros who dropped him on hill climbs in the Tour of Gila would beg to differ.

 

[frisenfruitig]

semi-pros who dropped him on hill climbs in the Tour of Gila would beg to differ.

Yes, and Froome was pack fodder until he suddenly became a cycling god overnight.

 

[Lequack]

He went and did it again. Won in Spain.

 

[Oldermanish]

semi-pros who dropped him on hill climbs in the Tour of Gila would beg to differ.

...and amateurs.

 

[CyclistAbi]

As for who is who i feel this should be settled. Eddy waited for a long time before handpicking the descendant. Contador did it on the road. By choosing the wheel of his descendant.

It's up to this two individuals now. To decide. To whom and when the lineal title will belong to in the future. A note. As for some possible future lineal Contador suggestions in this thread. Most of them doesn't qualify. As they don't crash that often.

Anyway. Looks like Pogi started his season in the Tour form. Considering he will need to find such form again for the actual Tour. I doubt we will see Rogla vs Pogi at Vuelta this year. So this season i guess others need to worry about where to get that 2 minutes. Some said they got it all figured out last season. That works for me.

On Pogi vs Jonas. Likely they will be all over each other this year. Like that cyclocross championship. Where only two participated. Plus an additional dron. Let the best one win. Maybe best if JV sends van Aert to the Giro. To not waste such potential.

As for who will gather more wins in the 2023 season. In regards to Slovenians. Lets wait and see if Rogla has such aspirations. Or will he settle with GC's. We likely all know the answer to that one.

Ok now i guess back to Evenpoel? Fine. But after i guess UAE Tour. When it all starts for real.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Win #48, getting close to 50 at the age of 24.

 

[johnymax]

Top form Rogla the only one who could stop him in these early stage races.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Top form Rogla the only one who could stop him in these early stage races.

Pogi reaches top form quickly and early. And so does Rogla.