Teams & Riders Tadej Pogačar discussion thread

[Samu Cuenca]

I thought if he was still 25 or under at the start they were still eligible though?

No, a rider is no longer eligible in the calendar year he turns 26.

 

[Panda Claws]

Merckx is still a good comparison cause all we can really look at is just how much of an outlier someone was when compared to their peers.

In that sense Merckx, no matter what you think of the opposition of his time, was magnitudes better than anyone else.
Despite the lesser professionalism of the sport back then nobody else was able to do that. Some people got somewhat close, namely Coppi and Hinault but it was a far cry at best.

Pogacar on the other hand is not only being very, very, very good today but he is being so good that he could (perhaps) actually end up with the 2nd best palmares, only after Merckx.

Is he a bigger outlier than Merckx was? Perhaps. I also think that if Pogacar was ten years older he would win less than he does now.

 

[SHAD0W93]

No, a rider is no longer eligible in the calendar year he turns 26.

Well, looks like even more reason to do Giro this year

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Well, looks like even more reason to do Giro this year

This year Tadej will likely beat the best young rider TdF record - 4th consecutive jersey.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Well, looks like even more reason to do Giro this year

I'm not sure the forum would be able to handle that

 

[Red Rick]

Uninteresting to the uninterested.

Symptomatic of how utterly uninteresting it is when someone just wins everything relatively uncontested. We grasp for something to talk about so all there's left is to compare him riders of 50 years ago in hypotheticals where he wins everything this year?

I suppose we ran out of discussion points regarding the 2022 Tour

 

[Boehmand]

I don't know what's interesting about putting Merckx into this conversation. You'd be insisting on comparing to impossible standards, which is in uninteresting, against a field that was magnitudes less professional and specialized than it is now, which is uninteresting.

Such will always be the nature of debating "greatest ever", as they will usually be from different eras.

 

[Salvarani]

Saying the competition was "weak", when Merckx was winning, is just poor choice of words. As it is now with Pog, as well.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Guys, its not like Pogacar steamrolled the classics. He didnt win MSR, didn't win E-3 and we witnessed an incredible Flanders where every guess would be as good as the next one in regards to who would win of Wout, MVP and Pogacar. Like come on man.

Sure, he won Amstel and Fleche, but thats about subpar competition. Healy and Skjeldmose were the best on the day. Where was Wout, Mathieu, Remco, Roglic, Alaphilippe, heck even Vingegaard? The races would obviously have been different with them in the race. Finally we get to see an actual great rider contest him in the Ardennes in Liege. The result might be the same, hes the favorite, but if you don't look forward to this kind of matchup, do you really like cycling?

We should appreciate this kind of talent.

 

[Bolder]

Merckx is still a good comparison cause all we can really look at is just how much of an outlier someone was when compared to their peers.

In that sense Merckx, no matter what you think of the opposition of his time, was magnitudes better than anyone else.
Despite the lesser professionalism of the sport back then nobody else was able to do that. Some people got somewhat close, namely Coppi and Hinault but it was a far cry at best.

Pogacar on the other hand is not only being very, very, very good today but he is being so good that he could (perhaps) actually end up with the 2nd best palmares, only after Merckx.

Is he a bigger outlier than Merckx was? Perhaps. I also think that if Pogacar was ten years older he would win less than he does now.

I wish I could have seen Merckx race, not sure how much was televised or filmed. I don’t buy the weak competition theory but in a time of relatively little scientific cycling training, I think it might’ve have been easier for a gifted athlete to stand out.

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

I don't think Pogacar will actually win LBL, because of Evenepoel being better and Pogacar's form dropping, but regardless of that his spring season is the best I've seen since I started watching cycling. I don't care about comparisons to pre-95's, since I never watched any of those races. Remarkable season already, and pretty sure he's going to win the Tour this year too.

Lol. I don’t disagree that Remco is one of the two favorites for LBL and could very well beat Pogacar, but there is no argument in favor of the bolder at this point.

 

[JosefK]

While we're comparing Pog to Merckx and others, could we go ahead and transplant today's Pogi into the 2013 TDF and see what would happen?

 

[Cookster15]

Is he a bigger outlier than Merckx was? Perhaps. I also think that if Pogacar was ten years older he would win less than he does now.

You mean born 10 years earlier.? That would mean he'd have to race against riders like Contador, Froome, Cancellara or Gilbert at his best (2011)? I tend to agree, although maybe we need to allow more time for comparison to today's rivals like Remco (classics) and Vingegaard (Grand Tours)?

But when I see these comparisons to Merckx I also think about his trajectory since we first noticed him. I first noticed Pogi when he won ToC as a 20-year-old in 2019. I still remember the headline in CN that morning and thought, this kid is only 20 years old? Who would have predicted then what we are now seeing in 2023?

 

[Oldermanish]

I wish I could have seen Merckx race, not sure how much was televised or filmed. I don’t buy the weak competition theory but in a time of relatively little scientific cycling training, I think it might’ve have been easier for a gifted athlete to stand out.

That is a good summary of the era differences. Natural talent was the main differentiator.
Given a theoretical increase in knowledge for Merckx and his competition in the end it would get down to who could train and recover best. It would still be Eddy IMO.

 

[Panda Claws]

You mean born 10 years earlier.? That would mean he'd have to race against riders like Contador, Froome, Cancellara or Gilbert at his best (2011)? I tend to agree, although maybe we need to allow more time for comparison to today's rivals like Remco (classics) and Vingegaard (Grand Tours)?

But when I see these comparisons to Merckx I also think about his trajectory since we first noticed him. I first noticed Pogi when he won ToC as a 20-year-old in 2019. I still remember the headline in CN that morning and thought, this kid is only 20 years old? Who would have predicted then what we are now seeing in 2023?

I am not talking about the strength of competition necessarily but mostly about the different expectations of riders and their calendar back then etc.
Similarly to how French Valverde would nonetheless have been very strong too but his palmares would probably have been different.

 

[SHAD0W93]

This year Tadej will likely beat the best young rider TdF record - 4th consecutive jersey.

Yes but if he’s chasing history he can do that and get the Giro classification wrote Evenepoel potentially does all three first
also with us talking about matching Merckx’s 1972,

 

[peterfin]

Lol. I don’t disagree that Remco is one of the two favorites for LBL and could very well beat Pogacar, but there is no argument in favor of the bolder at this point.

I think he means Evenepoel "becoming" better. So being in a better shape than earlier in the season. I think so too but we do need to see if LBL does not come too early for Remco as he had a long training at altitude. He handled it well in the past but many have a dip first. Statistics also show that since 2000 the winner almost always raced on Wednesday as well (although that can simply be because it's the natural program for favorites of both races).

I also believe many here are running a bit ahead regarding Pogacar's season. Yes, he is doing fantastic but imho not that much better compared to last year. He had his usual 1-week wins, he handled the RVV better this time (could have won last year as well) and had only minor opposition in his last 2 wins. Many of his usual goals are still ahead, the TdF of course as the major one on the list. I am curious to see if he made an other leap or if we see a similar performance as last year.

 

[tobydawq]

Symptomatic of how utterly uninteresting it is when someone just wins everything relatively uncontested. We grasp for something to talk about so all there's left is to compare him riders of 50 years ago in hypotheticals where he wins everything this year?

I suppose we ran out of discussion points regarding the 2022 Tour

What is this, why police what other posters talk about? Is it just because I like to do that when you're all crying about some route?

 

[topcat]

I don't know what's interesting about putting Merckx into this conversation. You'd be insisting on comparing to impossible standards, which is in uninteresting, against a field that was magnitudes less professional and specialized than it is now, which is uninteresting.

Hmmm, very interesting post

 

[YavorD]

While we're comparing Pog to Merckx and others, could we go ahead and transplant today's Pogi into the 2013 TDF and see what would happen?

I think he would win that Tour. Froome was fading towards the end and Pog would get 3-4 minutes on Quintana in the TT's. Not to mention, he wouldn't drop nearly as much as Quintana did in the first half.

 

[Blanco]

True, but I have no doubt Pogacar is a better rider "pound for pound", as the faces much better opposition, and not least much better teams than Merckx did.

Anquetil, Van Looy, Poulidor, Gimondi, Godefroot, Van Springel, Ocana, De Vlaeminck, Fuente, Zoetemelk, Maertens, Thevenet, Moser...
Who the hell is much better opposition than them?!

 

[Salvarani]

Anquetil, Van Looy, Poulidor, Gimondi, Godefroot, Van Springel, Ocana, De Vlaeminck, Fuente, Zoetemelk, Maertens, Thevenet, Moser...
Who the hell is much better opposition than them?!

Exactly, people really have no idea what they are talking about when they say "weak" competition.

Merckx faced a bunch of great riders, as Pog is doing also. They won/have been winning anyway, which more speaks to how great they are and not how "weak" everyone else presumably is. It is not the reality. Any other comment could be said somewhere else in the forum.

 

[Netserk]

What is this, why police what other posters talk about? Is it just because I like to do that when you're all crying about some route?

Frankly, it’s quite insane that you aren’t maddeningly passionate about routes in general.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Anquetil, Van Looy, Poulidor, Gimondi, Godefroot, Van Springel, Ocana, De Vlaeminck, Fuente, Zoetemelk, Maertens, Thevenet, Moser...
Who the hell is much better opposition than them?!

You can't say because you can't compare. Back in those days you could be a worldbeater by 1/ not smoking 2/ not drinking 3/ not eating like a pig.

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

I think he would win that Tour. Froome was fading towards the end and Pog would get 3-4 minutes on Quintana in the TT's. Not to mention, he wouldn't drop nearly as much as Quintana did in the first half.

Yeah I think so too. Vingegaard of last year likely would win tho if he were also transported. I think that is likely true of any stout back to 2009. I’m not convinced either of them would have beaten Contador that year.