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Teams & Riders Tadej Pogačar discussion thread

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Netserk

Netserk

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bNator said:
So what you are saying is that as long as Vingegaard attends the Tour uninjured, noone has realistic chances of beating him. If Pog (who is the second favourite) doesn't, then noone does. You can't make exaggerations like that and then expect to be taken seriously...
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Personally, I was very impressed by the level Pogi had in last year's Tour. So I thought that he could beat Vingegaard in the Tour this year, even if he wouldn't be the favourite.

But that's conditional on fully focusing on the Tour, not with the Giro in his legs. For the double, it hinges far more on circumstances than strength alone.
 
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Berniece

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bNator said:
So what you are saying is that as long as Vingegaard attends the Tour uninjured, noone has realistic chances of beating him.
Click to expand...
Yeah, after last year's showing that's exactly what I'm saying. Someone new could come along, or someone might make a jump in his progression (Pogacar or Evenepoel), and obviously there are some youngsters that might in the future. But now, I don't think Pogacar stood a chance against a Vingegaard that is perfectly prepared.
 
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Peyroteo94

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Berniece said:
Yeah, after last year's showing that's exactly what I'm saying. Someone new could come along, or someone might make a jump in his progression (Pogacar or Evenepoel), and obviously there are some youngsters that might in the future. But now, I don't think Pogacar stood a chance against a Vingegaard that is perfectly prepared.
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But Pogacar wasn't perfectly prepared last year and this is a fact. I still think Vingegaard is better than Pogacar but you can't claim Vingegaard was much better than Pogacar because that is not true, even against a suboptimal prepared Pogacar. If Pogacar destroys Vingegaard in the 2024 Tour, I will not say Vingegaard can't stand a chance against Pogacar because circunstances are important. Now, we have to wait for 2025 to have a nice battle again between these 2 monsters.
 
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bNator

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Netserk said:
Personally, I was very impressed by the level Pogi had in last year's Tour. So I thought that he could beat Vingegaard in the Tour this year, even if he wouldn't be the favourite.

But that's conditional on fully focusing on the Tour, not with the Giro in his legs. For the double, it hinges far more on circumstances than strength alone.
Click to expand...
So let's take last year's Pog and Vinge and say they have exactly the same prep as last year except Pog has no injury and maybe let's take this year's TdF route. I think Pog has a fair chance of beating Vingegaard this way. The only question is then: do you think an easy Giro is actually a worse prep than full spring classics programme? I'm not so sure...

Berniece said:
Yeah, after last year's showing that's exactly what I'm saying. Someone new could come along, or someone might make a jump in his progression (Pogacar or Evenepoel), and obviously there are some youngsters that might in the future. But now, I don't think Pogacar stood a chance against a Vingegaard that is perfectly prepared.
Click to expand...
Either that or Vingegaard may never again get so lucky with the combination of:
  • his main rival being injured
  • other major rivals not attending
  • the strongest team
  • perfectly suited route
Didn't you call me a child a couple of days ago? Well, I've been around, you know ;) More than enough to know that just as you think you have it all figured out, you're back at square one.
 
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Berniece

Berniece

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bNator said:
Either that or Vingegaard may never again get so lucky with the combination of:
  • his main rival being injured
  • other major rivals not attending
  • the strongest team
  • perfectly suited route
Didn't you call me a child a couple of days ago? Well, I've been around, you know ;) More than enough to know that just as you think you have it all figured out, you're back at square one.
Click to expand...
Well don't get started about riders being lucky in the Pogacar thread... The only thing you have going for Pogacar is that indeed he might not be perfectly prepared last year. I'm just saying that it wouldn't have mattered.

I can't recall calling you a child, maybe the post has been deleted. I might have asked if you are a child? Because you see the world so black and white, one way or the other, nothing in between.
 
bNator

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Berniece said:
Well don't get started about riders being lucky in the Pogacar thread... The only thing you have going for Pogacar is that indeed he might not be perfectly prepared last year. I'm just saying that it wouldn't have mattered.

I can't recall calling you a child, maybe the post has been deleted. I might have asked if you are a child? Because you see the world so black and white, one way or the other, nothing in between.
Click to expand...
You just don't see the irony, do you?
 
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zekance

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Berniece said:
Yeah, after last year's showing that's exactly what I'm saying. Someone new could come along, or someone might make a jump in his progression (Pogacar or Evenepoel), and obviously there are some youngsters that might in the future. But now, I don't think Pogacar stood a chance against a Vingegaard that is perfectly prepared.
Click to expand...
How did Vingegaard come back to win two consecutive tours after getting destroyed by Pogačar in 2021? It sure seemed impossible at that time.
 
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bNator

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Netserk said:
Yes, by far.
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But why? I know a hard Giro can cause "Giro legs" which can be observed in the 3rd week of TdF. But an easy Giro shouldn't cause that effect or at least much less. I mean even if they are training they will typically do a stage-per-day at this point, the only difference is they don't completely drain themselves during training - which is also true for easy Giro. There is some indication from the past a Giro can be a good prep for the Tour. Indurain, for instance, even Armstrong...

Doing classics programme, on the other hand, there are some conflicting goals regarding optimum weight, muscle mass, anaerobic vs. aerobic efficiency, etc.
 
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Netserk

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bNator said:
But why? I know a hard Giro can cause "Giro legs" which can be observed in the 3rd week of TdF. But an easy Giro shouldn't cause that effect or at least much less. I mean even if they are training they will typically do a stage-per-day at this point, the only difference is they don't completely drain themselves during training - which is also true for easy Giro. There is some indication from the past a Giro can be a good prep for the Tour. Indurain, for instance, even Armstrong...

Doing classics programme, on the other hand, there are some conflicting goals regarding optimum weight, muscle mass, anaerobic vs. aerobic efficiency, etc.
Click to expand...
Timing. As easy as it may seem for Pogi to win the Giro, the workload is not easy here. They've had much better weather this year so far, but that can change. And then there's the risk of illness and crashes on top.

Indurain faded towards the end of the 1994 Tour. The next year he skipped the Giro, and was at his best ever in the Tour. It's always a compromise.
 
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The fridge in the blue trees

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Lots of fun here...

Pogacar and the Giro has all to do with him wanting to win the Giro, nothing to do with Vingegaard being at the Tour. Pogacar takes on Van der Poel and Van Aerts in Flanders, or was he just doing that to have an excuse in case he was beaten by Remco in Liège and Lombardia? So trying Sanremo and Flanders as insurance policy? Of course not, what it shows is that Pogacar wants to win everything he has a realistic chance of winning. Giro might have happened already last year had he won the Tour in 22. Or not, first going for Flanders. That's done, so this year Giro, next year Flanders and Roubaix (you know, Roubaix just in case he can't beat Mathieu in Flanders....) then Tour.

The tactic or strategy changed now? Did it? Easy Giro now. Is it? No and no.

Change of strategy: He has won 3 stages, tried for 4 but was beaten by Narvaez on day 1. Except for that, it's pretty much what we expected. There's 0 indication so far that he's taking it easy, or easier than if Vingegaard was there 100% in July. Almost riding Thomas off your wheel in Fossano sure doesn't sound like taking it easy. And why would Pogacar and UAE change strategy anyway? That doesn't even make sense. Vingegaard will be at the Tour=ok, let's go crazy at the Giro, after all no need to stay fresh for the Tour, Vingegaard will win anyway! That's what they thought at UAE? Damn, they must be retards. Vingegaard there in July or not, 100% there or just 50%, changes nothing in the approach to the Giro for Pogacar. He wants to win the double, that means first do enough to win the Giro, then recovery time without losing the form. It's what happens between the Giro and the Tour that will decide how well the Tour goes, much less how he rides the Giro.
Easy Giro? No. Not even Pogacar can afford to just go at 90%. If others attack, even if it's "only" O'Connor, Tiberi, Thomas, Martinez, he will still have to follow. And no, he can't follow at 90%. He's good, but not superhuman. Will he go into the ultra-red zone every day? Probably no, but mostly because he would pay for that during the Giro, not during the TdF.
 
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Peyroteo94

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Tomorrow will be interesting. I have been looking to this time trial as the real test of Pogacar's ability in TT. I knew he would beat fairly easy Ganna in the first TT but this flat one will be thrilling to judge his aerodynamic position. It will be a good result if he ends up losing just 20 seconds to Ganna. However, I want to see if he can beat Ganna or am I being unrealistic?
 
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Red Rick

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Peyroteo94 said:
Tomorrow will be interesting. I have been looking to this time trial as the real test of Pogacar's ability in TT. I knew he would beat fairly easy Ganna in the first TT but this flat one will be thrilling to judge his aerodynamic position. It will be a good result if he ends up losing just 20 seconds to Ganna. However, I want to see if he can beat Ganna or am I being unrealistic?
Click to expand...
Beating Ganna would be a shocking unless the weather helped him out a lot.
 
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snipeheem

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Peyroteo94 said:
Tomorrow will be interesting. I have been looking to this time trial as the real test of Pogacar's ability in TT. I knew he would beat fairly easy Ganna in the first TT but this flat one will be thrilling to judge his aerodynamic position. It will be a good result if he ends up losing just 20 seconds to Ganna. However, I want to see if he can beat Ganna or am I being unrealistic?
Click to expand...
Special one told us about tt coach , aero position , expect Pogi is being better than remco in tts this year so we will see about that tomorrow
 
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Berniece

Berniece

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Peyroteo94 said:
Tomorrow will be interesting. I have been looking to this time trial as the real test of Pogacar's ability in TT. I knew he would beat fairly easy Ganna in the first TT but this flat one will be thrilling to judge his aerodynamic position. It will be a good result if he ends up losing just 20 seconds to Ganna. However, I want to see if he can beat Ganna or am I being unrealistic?
Click to expand...
If he wins, he should think about going for the double at the WC this year.
 
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