Teams & Riders Tadej Pogačar discussion thread

[James M]

I expect an attack if opportunity will present itself. Rest day incoming.

Can see the intrigue behind it but with other GC teams having many good riders on this terrain and IF its not very selective I fail to see it happening. Both Ineos and Jumbo imo have great riders here for instance imo. Ofcourse it all depends on how selective the parts etc is. Main priority should be to stay out of trouble and hope he dont have a flat or mechanical the teams only flaw might be this kinda stages like this it also might be a chance for his opponents to gain time.

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

How can he be that when he has 2 GT wins and noone vs Pogacar when he wanst hurt. Gotte be wildest take ive heard. Might be different generation talking here but haha that made me laugh out loud atleast. Your picture didnt exactly help but atleast it made help to make sense of what you typed

You can have a different opinion but you can't say he is by far the best. That's trolling. There is no evidence/fact supporting the idea of Vingegaard being by far the best.
So for now on, someone says Cavendish is a better climber than Vingegaard and I have to accept his opinion and not call him a troll for saying that because "it is his opinion". Of course I will not accept!! Please don't become a new Taxus. Taxus spent years in this forum claiming Purito and Landa were better climbers than Contador and how he wasn't a world class climber.

• In 2021, Vingegaard lost time waiting for his captain, Roglic, in the ITT, and on a mountain stage when he crashed. He then dropped Pogacar on the Queen stage on Mont Ventoux. Pogacar had no injuries but Vingegaard was injured in the lead up to the race.
• In 2022, he straight up destroyed him on Granon and Huatacam and beat him in the ITT. Neither was injured.
• In 2023, both put some early time on the other, but Vingegaard put more time on Pogacar than the other way around. Then he did the best Tour ITT of the past few decades, then destroyed Pogacar on Loze. Pogacar had an injured wrist in the lead up.
• 2024 it’s too early to say what will happen but Vingegaard has a pretty good excuse if he doesn’t beat Pogacar IMO.

Putting this together, I’d say the evidence tips in favor of @Froome ’s assertion that Vingegaard has proven himself to be the better GT rider so far. And I’m not what one would call a Vingegaard fan.

 

[Peyroteo94]

• In 2021, Vingegaard lost time waiting for his captain, Roglic, in the ITT, and on a mountain stage when he crashed. He then dropped Pogacar on the Queen stage on Mont Ventoux. Pogacar had no injuries but Vingegaard was injured in the lead up to the race.
• In 2022, he straight up destroyed him on Granon and Huatacam and beat him in the ITT. Neither was injured.
• In 2023, both put some early time on the other, but Vingegaard put more time on Pogacar than the other way around. Then he did the best Tour ITT of the past few decades, then destroyed Pogacar on Loze. Pogacar had an injured wrist in the lead up.
• 2024 it’s too early to say what will happen but Vingegaard has a pretty good excuse if he doesn’t beat Pogacar IMO.

Putting this together, I’d say the evidence tips in favor of @Froome ’s assertion that Vingegaard has proven himself to be the better GT rider so far. And I’m not what one would call a Vingegaard fan.

Dude, please read again... I said a lot of times Vingegaard is the best GT rider, what are you talking about? That is not the point! I'm getting sick of this. I'm out.

 

[Vudy]

• In 2021, Vingegaard lost time waiting for his captain, Roglic, in the ITT, and on a mountain stage when he crashed. He then dropped Pogacar on the Queen stage on Mont Ventoux. Pogacar had no injuries but Vingegaard was injured in the lead up to the race.
• In 2022, he straight up destroyed him on Granon and Huatacam and beat him in the ITT. Neither was injured.
• In 2023, both put some early time on the other, but Vingegaard put more time on Pogacar than the other way around. Then he did the best Tour ITT of the past few decades, then destroyed Pogacar on Loze. Pogacar had an injured wrist in the lead up.
• 2024 it’s too early to say what will happen but Vingegaard has a pretty good excuse if he doesn’t beat Pogacar IMO.

Putting this together, I’d say the evidence tips in favor of @Froome ’s assertion that Vingegaard has proven himself to be the better GT rider so far. And I’m not what one would call a Vingegaard fan.

Why did you revive this senseless debate again?

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

Why did you revive this senseless debate again?

What are you talking about? I didn’t revive anything. It’s been three pages of this debate without my involvement. I mostly just quoted the wrong person. I should have quoted @James M instead of @Peyroteo94. I agree with @Peyroteo94 that “by far the best” is not right. “The best” seems reasonable at this time IMO. Pogacar still being “the best” or probably “by far the best” all around rider. But putting asterisks by everything Vingegaard does like @James M is to ignore that Vingegaard is a GT freak of nature. Equating the argument that Vingegaard is a better GT rider than Pogacar with Taxus’ argument that Contador was a bad climber is why I weighed in. Taxus couldn’t look past his own inexplicable bias; I have no bias in favor of Vingegaard.

 

[James M]

What are you talking about? I didn’t revive anything. It’s been three pages of this debate without my involvement. I mostly just quoted the wrong person. I should have quoted @James M instead of @Peyroteo94. I agree with @Peyroteo94 that “by far the best” is not right. “The best” seems reasonable at this time IMO. Pogacar still being “the best” or probably “by far the best” all around rider. But putting asterisks by everything Vingegaard does like @James M is to ignore that Vingegaard is a GT freak of nature. Equating the argument that Vingegaard is a better GT rider than Pogacar with Taxus’ argument that Contador was a bad climber is why I weighed in. Taxus couldn’t look past his own inexplicable bias; I have no bias in favor of Vingegaard.

haha vingegaard beating a Pogacar when he was hurt one year doesnt make him a freak in GT by any means at all for me but if he does for you thats fine and dine. He has 2 GT and neither yeah you figure out the rest.

Edit: I think he is good in GT in case i upset you just dont think he is close to Pogacar that is all and not very controversial seeing he has never beaten him in one when he wasnt hurt. My generation would call that extremely hyped but might be a generation thing. Please dont tag me in this nonsense please

Just let him have his fantasy Vingo is the GOAT at all aspects of cycling and hope the magical thinking stays in the Vingo thread. There is no logical conversation to be had

I couldnt have said it better myself my last post on that matter ill just refer to this cause I couldnt agree more. Im even having hard time to actually even believe its not a joke tbh says it all

 

[Vudy]

What are you talking about? I didn’t revive anything. It’s been three pages of this debate without my involvement. I mostly just quoted the wrong person. I should have quoted @James M instead of @Peyroteo94. I agree with @Peyroteo94 that “by far the best” is not right. “The best” seems reasonable at this time IMO. Pogacar still being “the best” or probably “by far the best” all around rider. But putting asterisks by everything Vingegaard does like @James M is to ignore that Vingegaard is a GT freak of nature. Equating the argument that Vingegaard is a better GT rider than Pogacar with Taxus’ argument that Contador was a bad climber is why I weighed in. Taxus couldn’t look past his own inexplicable bias; I have no bias in favor of Vingegaard.

You know why it is senseless? Because everybody has their views and this debate could go on for 10 pages or more. I would agree that Vingegaard is better in the Tour for the past 2 years. And I could also argue that Pogačar is a better GT rider because he has 3 GT wins. Let's just leave it at that. They are both fantastic, freaks of nature... It's just that there will never be a conclusion to this. Hope you understand what I mean. No bad blood...

 

[BigCoward]

Honestly, children.

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

Honestly, children.

 

[Lequack]

Pog when interviewed yesterday. He has become jaded with these sprint stages, and he is right.

Yet even after increasing his advantage over Vingegaard, Pogacar displayed a surprising sense of ennui when asked how he was feeling about the stages to come.
“This year’s Tour is a bit strange,” he said. “There’s nothing to look forward to. Tomorrow is another stressful day, then another stressful day, then the rest day. Then another stressful day and another stressful day.”

Tour de France: Remco Evenepoel powers to stage seven time trial victory

Remco Evenepoel won his first individual time trial after beating the current race leader, Tadej Pogacar, in the 23.5 km ‘race of truth’

www.theguardian.com

 

[Gigs_98]

Concerning tomorrow, I think he should be aggressive. Even if he's currently in the best climbing shape, no other gc contender has as big of an edge over their rivals in any discipline as Pogacar on a stage like tomorrow. Yes, it's not easy to gain time there, but if everything goes right one can gain minutes. People talking about how his huge effort on the cobbles in 2022 only got him a few seconds on Vingegaard forget he actually gained a huge chunk on Roglic which simply became irrelevant once Roglic DNFed. Plus Visma doesn't have Van Aert in super shape to save Vingegaards ass tomorrow.

 

[Offline]

Maybe it was just a impression but he looked sick and tired after stage.

Just at impression he can't smile and be happy in all interviews.

 

[Sciatic]

I dont think Merckx woulda been close to even riders like Mas in the mountains or Bettiol, Skujins in flandern or most of the peleton today even its ludacrious to think that and only nostalgia talking nothing else
Wasnt meant as an argument just a simple fact and all that is correct ofcourse and normal.

Why does almost everyone bias these comparisons toward the present standards? A better comparison would be to say how would Pogacar or Vingegaard stack up against Merckx in his time—that is, with 1960s equipment, training, testing, data analysis, nutrition, coaching, and superstitions? Even discounting chemical assists I don’t think today’s riders would be able to get so skinny without losing power, and they might not understand that it would be something to achieve. So you should assume it would be a heavier Pog or Vinge competing against that Merckx.

Or do it this way: how would Merckx do with today’s training methods, nutrition, testing, etc, etc.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Maybe it was just a impression but he looked sick and tired after stage.

The TdF peloton were just informed after the stage about the tragedy in the Tour of Austria.

 

[James M]

[[deleted content and response removed]]

Or do it this way: how would Merckx do with today’s training methods, nutrition, testing, etc, etc.

Your point I get it and agree but thats assumption and a different discussion, topic and wasnt what i meant. I was never talking about his greatness. Also I agree.

 

[danielovichdk2]

Pog is tired already. It reads through his commentary. He will fade from here on out of the tour. Covid got to him.

 

[The fridge in the blue trees]

I simply replied Merckx wouldnt beat Vingegaard in the mountains or Van der Poel in flandern or most of the peloton today even. For the same reason the guy said Jack Nicholson wouldnt be a top 100 golfer today. I think thats very very obvious.

He's 79 years old...

 

[James M]

He's 79 years old...

You misunderstand me. Talking about his level in his prime..Not by any means saying its justified etc if you take what Pogacar have into accont of equipement data etcetcetc thats a different topic and discussion and based on assumption as the great sir above said which is true..diferent topic was never my meaning about what i typed simply replied Merckx wouldnt beat the likes of Vingegaard in the mountains or Van der poel in flandern and I believe thats obvious nothing else.

 

[James M]

He's 79 years old...

Hardly would be fair would it haha but hillarious. In that case I doubt he would even beat me and im 19 and im not saying im greater than Merckx just in case ppl misunderstand me.

 

[Le Grand Doop]

I simply replied Merckx wouldnt beat Vingegaard in the mountains or Van der Poel in flandern or most of the peloton today even.

really hard to say.

even Lemond says that had he known that if he lost 5 more kgs (even from his TDF weight) he would have registered much higher watts/kg -- like they do now.

also, while Merckx had a great team, the team leaders (and most often Merckx) would literally ride most of any stage in the wind -- leading the front group. There was not this tradition of the mountain train at all.

then there are the technological advances....

lastly, the design of the routes DOES matter. Having 30 KMs of ITT or whatever in a GT literally alters who can challenge and, more importantly, how they go about it. Look at Remco desperately losing 2.5 KGs in 3 weeks. Look at the skeletons and the eating disorders -- this is all connected to trying to fulfill the audience demand for nothing but mountain climbs. You have 100 KMs of ITT. You have a TTT. You have many 200+ KM flat stages (that wear out the skeleton climbers) and you have a completely different competition.

merckx was a freak of nature to be sure. however, it is likely that Lemond was even more so. and comparing with today is pointless.

 

[Berniece]

You misunderstand me. Talking about his level in his prime..Not by any means saying its justified etc if you take what Pogacar have into accont of equipement data etcetcetc thats a different topic and discussion and based on assumption as the great sir above said which is true..diferent topic was never my meaning about what i typed simply replied Merckx wouldnt beat the likes of Vingegaard in the mountains or Van der poel in flandern and I believe thats obvious nothing else.

I think you haven’t seen a single race of Merckx in your life

 

[Peyroteo94]

It is useless to compare eras. Of course Merckx would win a lot less today but it's not his fault for having born in the 40's. So he was truly remarkable during his era and by far the most dominant rider cycling will ever witness. But cycling is a different sport now and hats off for Pogacar, it is magical to see someone being put alongside the GOAT of cycling. Maybe one day, Pogacar will get there (GOAT of cycling. For me he is on his way to be the GOAT).
Now, looking to tomorrow stage, I hope João can be at the front with Ayuso and Pogacar. I think UAE will be unbeatable in the mountains, specially due to having 3 weapons very close in the GC.

 

[Fos]

Maybe it was just a impression but he looked sick and tired after stage.

The first thing I thought about when watching the interview is that they have been informed of Andre's death, and I think that is the reason for his seriousness.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Pog is tired already. It reads through his commentary. He will fade from here on out of the tour. Covid got to him.

This Tour already has an asterisk after the loss of the clear favorite GC Kuss to Covid. The Vuelta will pay for this outrage.

 

[Sciatic]

[[deleted content and response removed]]


Your point I get it and agree but thats assumption and a different discussion, topic and wasnt what i meant. I was never talking about his greatness. Also I agree.

Understood, and didn’t mean to single you you out—it comes up often.