Teams & Riders Tadej Pogačar discussion thread

[scribers]

Let’s not introduce fact based evidence in this conversation. Dispassionate speculation with a doubtful slant only please

 

[scribers]

Roglic came to the sport late having switched from ski jumping. The big exception to longevity was Valverde.

Cavendish

 

[Peyroteo94]

Yeah, Valverde was at his best for 15 years. The best? Not really, maybe in hilly classics from 2006 to 2009 and 2014 to 2018.
It doesn't matter if Pogacar is at his best when he is 36 years old but can't win important races, just podiums.

 

[tobydawq]

Yeah, Valverde was at his best for 15 years. The best? Not really, maybe in hilly classics from 2006 to 2009 and 2014 to 2018.
It doesn't matter if Pogacar is at his best when he is 36 years old but can't win important races, just podiums.

I thought you meant 'the best' relative to his own level.

 

[Peyroteo94]

I thought you meant 'the best' relative to his own level.

The best in the peloton.
Even if Pogacar is at his best in 10 years, someone can be better than him and will make his life difficult in the Tour and other races. It doesn't mean if he is at his best if he can't win big races in order to become the GOAT.
For example, Valverde reached his full peak shape in 2017 (IMHO) but was close to that level in 10-12 seasons however in a couple of seasons, he didn't win big races for some reason.
I believe Pogacar will have seasons like Valverde where he loses races due to circunstances or someone appears to be better.

 

[scribers]

Valverde was never the best in the peloton. He was the best in a race, a lot of time. Early, middle, and late career the best in a lot of races.

 

[BubbaChuck]

pog has best genes in peleton by country mile.san milan always marveled at that and this was logic behind his zone 2 training.to trully unlock pogacar genetical potential in terms of vo2max,muscle recovery,fatigue resistence and pogs biggest strenght mitochondrial function.the reason,why i think pogs career is gonna be very long and out of norm is his crazy muscle recovery.this is probably most important factor long term,damage to muscle tissue destroys you.juan ayuso during tour said somethnig remarkable,when asked,what is pogs biggest strenght.he said,pogacar legs never hurt.and this is young kid talking about older guy,lol.pog never had any issue with injuries up to this point is another soign.buckle up,its gonna be long ride.

 

[Scarponi]

Physically humans are top around 25, after that a very slow decline sets in. Between 40-45 decline will accelerate. However experience can make humans more effective, negating slow physical decline or even making sporters ride better after 25: knowing your body, what training works, what nutrition works,...

Also some aspects decline faster then others. Explosiveness and sense of balance will go faster then durability.
But that's for normal humans.

Topsport puts an incredible strain on body and mind. Injuries can reduce body functions. And al humans cope differently.
So I dont think it's pure motivation. Some sporters just decline.

Also sacrifices can be harder to do when the results decline slightly, for those lucky enough to age gently . Without the records of TDF stages, what would have kept Marc Cavendish going? Doing all that effort for a few victories a year, where it used to be plenty? He would have retired earlier is my guess.

Will pog still ride if he is no longer a TDF winner but maybe can do a Vuelta or Giro? Will those records motivate him? Let's say he had wone 5 TDF, 2 Giro and 2 Vuelta, will a slight chance at another vuelta inspire him?
That's why in my opinion lot's of top sporters just dont find the motivation to continue

Luckily science and medicine have allowed sporters to compete longer these days, Ronaldo, Messi, Lebron, Jimmy Anderson all defying age, but besides Anderson, all of those have declined slowly.

Funnily enough most cyclists tend to do well still at shorter time trials, shorter mountain stages at an older age than longer. Where as most sports it’s the opposite

 

[Peyroteo94]

Valverde was never the best in the peloton. He was the best in a race, a lot of time. Early, middle, and late career the best in a lot of races.

This is the difference for Pogacar. In order to be the GOAT, Pogacar will need to be the best rider in the world IMHO.

 

[Berniece]

Valverde was never the best in the peloton. He was the best in a race, a lot of time. Early, middle, and late career the best in a lot of races.

I disagree, I always found him one of the best, and most of the time the best in the peloton. When they asked Tom Boonen who was the best rider in the peloton during those years, he always says Valverde.

You seem to be forgetting that this guy got such a palmares while riding at MOVISTAR. Can you imagine him riding at a proper team?

 

[scribers]

I disagree, I always found him one of the best, and most of the time the best in the peloton. When they asked Tom Boonen who was the best rider in the peloton during those years, he always says Valverde.

You seem to be forgetting that this guy got such a palmares while riding at MOVISTAR. Can you imagine him riding at a proper team?

I think Movistar was pretty good compared to other teams during Valverde's career. I can be persuaded. In terms of Valverde being the best, for some reason we are dancing around in this thread to peyote's flute. And the song is unprovable ideas with strawman distractions.

 

[Peyroteo94]

I disagree, I always found him one of the best, and most of the time the best in the peloton. When they asked Tom Boonen who was the best rider in the peloton during those years, he always says Valverde.

You seem to be forgetting that this guy got such a palmares while riding at MOVISTAR. Can you imagine him riding at a proper team?

He always lived in Contador's shadow during his best years. He was expecting to be the next Indurain (GT material) but he always failed in the Tour, specially in 2006 (he DNS) and 2007. Contador emerged in 2007 and since there he was Spain's favourite, something Valverde never liked.

 

[Berniece]

He always lived in Contador's shadow during his best years. He was expecting to be the next Indurain (GT material) but he always failed in the Tour, specially in 2006 (he DNS) and 2007. Contador emerged in 2007 and since there he was Spain's favourite, something Valverde never liked.

What do you mean by in his shadow? Purely in GC's for GT's, Contador was the better rider, and that's it. But cycling is bigger than the GC in a GT. Which is why you see Valverde at the top of many end-of-year rankings, and why Tom Boonen would say he's the best rider of his generation, and not Contador.

 

[AmRacer]

But cycling is bigger than the GC in a GT.

 

[bNator]

What do you mean by in his shadow? Purely in GC's for GT's, Contador was the better rider, and that's it. But cycling is bigger than the GC in a GT. Which is why you see Valverde at the top of many end-of-year rankings, and why Tom Boonen would say he's the best rider of his generation, and not Contador.

Tom Boonen is just another guy with an opinion which should not count more as any other (from the pool of cycling insiders). If anything, it’s understandable he would rate Valverde higher than Contador, he himself being a classics rider and therefore probably valuing classics a bit more.

 

[Berniece]

Tom Boonen is just another guy with an opinion which should not count more as any other (from the pool of cycling insiders). If anything, it’s understandable he would rate Valverde higher than Contador, he himself being a classics rider and therefore probably valuing classics a bit more.

I thought that in this topic, the opinion of other ex-riders was the most important one, even if we neglect every ranking where Valverde is on top.

 

[scribers]

If Boonen thinks it, that sounds pretty good to me.

 

[Cookster15]

Pogacar entered his prime in 2020 so this is his 5th season. Hardly anyone in cycling history had 10 seasons in his prime. For Pogacar his 10th will be at the age of 30/31. How good Pogacar can be after turning 30 yo is a good question IMO, no guarantees there. Not saying he won't be winning anymore but he can become considerably weaker than in his best seasons. Physical and mental decline after so many seasons at the top can't be neglected.

To be honest, after the 2022 and 2023 TdFs I was beginning to wonder if Pogacar had peaked for grand tours already. Then 2024 happened.

But I do think motivation is a major factor limiting career longevity.

 

[Froome]

Modern medicine and training methods in a sport where riders were always pretty good into their mid 30s.

Seriously it's not even a question Pogacar can be a high level into his mid to late 30s.

Yeah, but there is a big problem. Soon or later, a new generation of riders appear and get better than Pogacar and the other best guys.

 

[bNator]

Yeah, but there is a big problem. Soon or later, a new generation of riders appear and get better than Pogacar and the other best guys.

Unless it doesn’t and Pog gets to be the GOAT.

 

[Miha81]

Unless it doesn’t and Pog gets to be the GOAT.

The existing goat had arguably 7 great years (69 - 75). But I guess his decline was also because of injuries.

 

[Valv.Piti]

I hold Tommeke in even higher regards now. Needless to say I completely agree with him, although I consider Alberto very close.

 

[Froome]

Unless it doesn’t and Pog gets to be the GOAT.

You can keep dreaming, it's something free someone thinking Merckx is achievable.

 

[bNator]

You can keep dreaming, it's something free someone thinking Merckx is achievable.

Well, if nothing else, I’ll always be able to take some consolation in how he destroyed Vingegaard in 2024😉

 

[snipeheem]

Well, if nothing else, I’ll always be able to take some consolation in how he destroyed Vingegaard in 2024😉

He humiliated him and whole arrogant Visma team