Teams & Riders Tadej Pogačar discussion thread

[foxbat]

After stage 20 of the 2020 TDF Visma can't stand Pogacar. Pog sees them as competitors while they see him as an enemy.
There are multiple examples of this. I remember when van Hoydonck chased down and stuck to Pogacar's wheel on Champ's Elysees just to intimidate him.
I also remember how they were mocking him after the '' I'm gone, I'm dead'' moment.
I also remember the arrogant Plugge saying after last year' s Giro '' Let's see if Pogacar will dominate like this in the Tour against better riders''. Niermann' s words about Pogacar: 'He' s totally f###ed. Come on, you'll kill him! ''.
I like Jonas but I can' t stand Visma. Nothing gives me more relief than watching that team lose.

then last week, their coach tim heemskerk (re jonas) with: "we're ahead of our competitors"

 

[Salvarani]

After stage 20 of the 2020 TDF Visma can't stand Pogacar. Pog sees them as competitors while they see him as an enemy.
There are multiple examples of this. I remember when van Hoydonck chased down and stuck to Pogacar's wheel on Champ's Elysees just to intimidate him.
I also remember how they were mocking him after the '' I'm gone, I'm dead'' moment.
I also remember the arrogant Plugge saying after last year' s Giro '' Let's see if Pogacar will dominate like this in the Tour against better riders''. Niermann' s words about Pogacar: 'He' s totally f###ed. Come on, you'll kill him! ''.
I like Jonas but I can' t stand Visma. Nothing gives me more relief than watching that team lose.

Yeah, it is just nasty behavior from this team.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Legendary moment. That smile says everything!

View this content on Instagram

View this content on Instagram

View: https://www.instagram.com/reel/DGEeqT1I5KY/?igsh=dHBpeGZqdDlqMm9r

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

This is coming from a former cyclist on a team that dominated the GTs. Were he worried about the Vuelta's audience in 2023 when they decided not to compete?

The hatred that Visma has for Pogacar is insane.

However, this isn't the first time several Visma cyclists have said something bad about him.

It's very toxic to experience a rivalry like this. It doesn't surprise me that Vingegaard might be mentally burned out with teammates who talk about a rival all the time in an unhealthy way.
It's not healthy to experience sport or rivalry like this. This isn't the first time they've spewed hate to Pogacar. This comment from a fellow professional is very toxic.

Firstly, Van Hooydonk is not (as far as I am aware) at Visma any more, so he doesn't speak for them, this is in no way being presented as coming from that team.

Secondly, what single utterance has he made that is in anyway disrespectful of, yet alone hateful towards, Pogacar?

Thirdly, it is not unreasonable to say that a competitive race is more interesting than one in which the result is in no doubt for the majority of the event. You might not agree, but it is not unreasonable to think it.

I'd agree that the 2023 Vuelta was similarly unenthralling because it was not competitive, and it seems strange that someone who works with TNT/WB/ES/Discovery cannot find viewership data rather than speculating about it, but frankly, I would say that your reaction to the article shows more about your attitude to Visma than the article shows about Van Hooydonk's attitude to Pogacar.

 

[Lequack]

This is coming from a former cyclist on a team that dominated the GTs. Were he worried about the Vuelta's audience in 2023 when they decided not to compete?

The hatred that Visma has for Pogacar is insane.

Pogacar sees them as rivals, but I've never heard him say anything like this about Visma.
However, this isn't the first time several Visma cyclists have said something bad about him.

At Visma, they don't know how to win (what they said about FDJ and the beers, or how the others weren't doing their jobs well), and they don't know how to lose either.

It's very toxic to experience a rivalry like this. It doesn't surprise me that Vingegaard might be mentally burned out with teammates who talk about a rival all the time in an unhealthy way.
It's not healthy to experience sport or rivalry like this. This isn't the first time they've spewed hate to Pogacar. This comment from a fellow professional is very toxic.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1919474742009929757

View: https://x.com/CyclingUpToDat3/status/1919474742009929757

"Every stage Pogacar wanted to win, his team would take control of the peloton, and he’d go on to win it," continues Van Hooydonck's recollection of the 2024 Giro d'Italia. "And sometimes he’d even win a stage by accident, overtaking another rider in the final kilometre."

Yet when the sprint teams want to win every stage, it's normal. They don't let a strong break form and control the race.

 

[hayneplane]

Firstly, Van Hooydonk is not (as far as I am aware) at Visma any more, so he doesn't speak for them, this is in no way being presented as coming from that team.

Secondly, what single utterance has he made that is in anyway disrespectful of, yet alone hateful towards, Pogacar?

Thirdly, it is not unreasonable to say that a competitive race is more interesting than one in which the result is in no doubt for the majority of the event. You might not agree, but it is not unreasonable to think it.

I'd agree that the 2023 Vuelta was similarly unenthralling because it was not competitive, and it seems strange that someone who works with TNT/WB/ES/Discovery cannot find viewership data rather than speculating about it, but frankly, I would say that your reaction to the article shows more about your attitude to Visma than the article shows about Van Hooydonk's attitude to Pogacar.

Nathan Van Hooydonk does still have a paid role in the commercial side of the team alongside his media work so whilst not in the sporting hierarchy and speaking directly for the team management he does still have a strong association with Visma.

 

[Peyroteo94]

"Every stage Pogacar wanted to win, his team would take control of the peloton, and he’d go on to win it," continues Van Hooydonck's recollection of the 2024 Giro d'Italia. "And sometimes he’d even win a stage by accident, overtaking another rider in the final kilometre."

Yet when the sprint teams want to win every stage, it's normal. They don't let a strong break form and control the race.

Totally agree. Never understood why sprinters are allowed to win a lot of stages but GC riders aren't...

 

[James M]

This is coming from a former cyclist on a team that dominated the GTs. Were he worried about the Vuelta's audience in 2023 when they decided not to compete?

The hatred that Visma has for Pogacar is insane.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1919474742009929757

View: https://x.com/CyclingUpToDat3/status/1919474742009929757

They have a severe inferiority complex towards Pogacar; it's actually kinda pathetic at this point. For the rest its subjective, it's potato, potatoes. But the inferiority complex reeks everytime they speak.

 

[Cycling111]

He's still linked to the team.
But I didn't highlight it for a specific comment. Since 2020, they've spoken negatively about Pogacar several times.
These statements about the Giro are a mere anecdote compared to other, worse things that Visma members have said. Although it's still unpleasant when a professional colleague speaks like that about another, especially when the person saying it has been part of a very dominant team.

 

[Peyroteo94]

They have a severe inferiority complex towards Pogacar; it's actually kinda pathetic at this point. For the rest its subjective, it's potato, potatoes. But the inferiority complex reeks everytime they speak.

They know Pogacar is their only rival in the Tour so it is easy to know why they don't like him.

 

[hayneplane]

He's still linked to the team.
But I didn't highlight it for a specific comment. Since 2020, they've spoken negatively about Pogacar several times.
These statements about the Giro are a mere anecdote compared to other, worse things that Visma members have said. Although it's still unpleasant when a professional colleague speaks like that about another, especially when the person saying it has been part of a very dominant team.

I don’t know if Van Hooydonk chose to follow Pogacar and sit on on the Paris laps in 2023 or the team told him to but either way it was an unbelievably petty move for the yellow jersey team to pull on their biggest competitor.

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

Nathan Van Hooydonk does still have a paid role in the commercial side of the team alongside his media work so whilst not in the sporting hierarchy and speaking directly for the team management he does still have a strong association with Visma.

OK, I did qualify it with "as far as I know", but if people wish to disregard the first part of my reply, that's fine.

But the other points remain: he said nothing derogatory about Pogacar, and he is right that many people will be more likely to watch races in which the result is finely balanced for longer. Nobody has provided a counter-argument, but several are acting as though the comments were reprehensible by virtue of the accusations having been made.

 

[hayneplane]

OK, I did qualify it with "as far as I know", but if people wish to disregard the first part of my reply, that's fine.

But the other points remain: he said nothing derogatory about Pogacar, and he is right that many people will be more likely to watch races in which the result is finely balanced for longer. Nobody has provided a counter-argument, but several are acting as though the comments were reprehensible by virtue of the accusations having been made.

I was merely clarifying the context of the professional associations that NVH has. I was not seeking to cast judgement and yes I accept that you did not state categorically that he had no role in Visma.

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

But I didn't highlight it for a specific comment. Since 2020, they've spoken negatively about Pogacar several times.
These statements about the Giro are a mere anecdote compared to other, worse things that Visma members have said. Although it's still unpleasant when a professional colleague speaks like that about another, especially when the person saying it has been part of a very dominant team.

Hard to accept that when you introduce a reference from another site into the forum, and quote it in your post, that that is not the "specific comment" that you are referring to, especially when you say "This comment from a fellow professional is very toxic", "This is coming from a former cyclist on a team that..." and "I've never heard him (Pogacar) say anything like this about Visma."

So what was it that van Hooydonk said on this occasion that was so toxic and unprofessional about Pogacar? You were quick to jump on the part of my reply that contained an error (my apologies, no wish to mislead), but have not attempted to reply to the other parts.

These statements about the Giro are a mere anecdote compared to other, worse things that Visma members have said

Go on then: cite three times when Visma staff had said worse things than this about Pogacar (not that there was anything detrimental, I believe, to Pogacar in these comments, but I have invited you to demonstrate why it was).

 

[Divergence]

"Every stage Pogacar wanted to win, his team would take control of the peloton, and he’d go on to win it," continues Van Hooydonck's recollection of the 2024 Giro d'Italia. "And sometimes he’d even win a stage by accident, overtaking another rider in the final kilometre."

Yet when the sprint teams want to win every stage, it's normal. They don't let a strong break form and control the race.

Yeah, that way of thinking is a relic of the past. I, for one, do not enjoy breakaway stages at all. By this I mean breakaways composed of inferior riders. If there racing is hard and a strong group (but not necessarily the the main GC guys) goes off the front I find it OK. However, the reason why the group managed to form a breakaway should be because the peloton cannot chase it down without severely compromising overall race success and not because they want to take it easy. In this regard I find Pog's way of racing a breath of fresh air. No gifts to anybody, especially the awful yellow's.

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

I was merely clarifying the context of the professional associations that NVH has. I was not seeking to cast judgement and yes I accept that you did not state categorically that he had no role in Visma.

My apologies: the second paragraph should have been directed at Cycling 111, not to you.

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

Totally agree. Never understood why sprinters are allowed to win a lot of stages but GC riders aren't...

Nobody has suggested that he isn't allowed to win. He is commenting on spectacle for the fans of the sport. That there was spectacle for fans of Pogacar is clear, but fans of one rider might not provide the level of public engagement that the race promoters are looking for.

 

[Salvarani]

They have a severe inferiority complex towards Pogacar; it's actually kinda pathetic at this point. For the rest its subjective, it's potato, potatoes. But the inferiority complex reeks everytime they speak.

They just show no class and should have more respect for a fellow rider, even if he is a rival. It is pathetic honestly. Nothing is surprising regarding them though since 2020.

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

"Every stage Pogacar wanted to win, his team would take control of the peloton, and he’d go on to win it," continues Van Hooydonck's recollection of the 2024 Giro d'Italia. "And sometimes he’d even win a stage by accident, overtaking another rider in the final kilometre."

Yet when the sprint teams want to win every stage, it's normal. They don't let a strong break form and control the race.

And if there were one sprinter who would then go on to win every time the stage finished as a bunch sprint, that would be equally tedious (for mst viewers, not for fans of the dominant sprinter). But if the sprints are closely contested between several riders, then that is sporting entertainment (not my preferred type of stage, by any means)


I'm sure that many here would have preferred it if he had expressed in more specifically as such, but effectively Van Hooydonck is praising Pogacar here: he is saying "On the stages that he targeted, he was untouchable. " I'm pretty sure I read many enthusiastic fans of Pogacar saying the same thing during last year's Giro. But rather than saying that from the perspective of what it looks like from an admirer's PoV, he is suggesting that if people are trying to sell TV advertising time, that might not be what they most want. That's not hatred or lack of respect: it is, perhaps, concern for the revenues that the sport relies on. By all means question whether it is misguided concern, but it is not rational, I would suggest, to say that this comes from a position of professional disrespect.

 

[Salvarani]

I don’t know if Van Hooydonk chose to follow Pogacar and sit on on the Paris laps in 2023 or the team told him to but either way it was an unbelievably petty move for the yellow jersey team to pull on their biggest competitor.

It was definitely targeted. His comments now are just laughable and delusional. Just sounds very bitter.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Nobody has suggested that he isn't allowed to win. He is commenting on spectacle for the fans of the sport. That there was spectacle for fans of Pogacar is clear, but fans of one rider might not provide the level of public engagement that the race promoters are looking for.

I already listened many riders complaining about gc riders winning a lot of stages.

 

[Lequack]

Imagine if they had internet in the time of Merckx.

 

[Shortcut]

And if there were one sprinter who would then go on to win every time the stage finished as a bunch sprint, that would be equally tedious (for mst viewers, not for fans of the dominant sprinter). But if the sprints are closely contested between several riders, then that is sporting entertainment (not my preferred type of stage, by any means)


I'm sure that many here would have preferred it if he had expressed in more specifically as such, but effectively Van Hooydonck is praising Pogacar here: he is saying "On the stages that he targeted, he was untouchable. " I'm pretty sure I read many enthusiastic fans of Pogacar saying the same thing during last year's Giro. But rather than saying that from the perspective of what it looks like from an admirer's PoV, he is suggesting that if people are trying to sell TV advertising time, that might not be what they most want. That's not hatred or lack of respect: it is, perhaps, concern for the revenues that the sport relies on. By all means question whether it is misguided concern, but it is not rational, I would suggest, to say that this comes from a position of professional disrespect.

But why was wiewership best ever last year at Giro and why was pretty mediocre one year before (even though was extremly close til last stage)?

 

[HashRouge]

It was definitely targeted. His comments now are just laughable and delusional. Just sounds very bitter.

I like NvH's commentary. He's on The Breakaway quite a lot and I always think he's quite fair when talking about Pogacar. It's interesting to have the insight of someone who has ridden against him for his biggest rival. I also think it's absolutely fine to say the Giro will be more interesting this year because of Pogacar's absence. I'm a Pogi fan but I'm happy to admit the GC at last year's Giro was not entertaining at all - we all knew who would win before it even started. I think it's okay for commentators to say that, it doesn't make them "delusional" or "bitter".

 

[James M]

I like NvH's commentary. He's on The Breakaway quite a lot and I always think he's quite fair when talking about Pogacar. It's interesting to have the insight of someone who has ridden against him for his biggest rival. I also think it's absolutely fine to say the Giro will be more interesting this year because of Pogacar's absence. I'm a Pogi fan but I'm happy to admit the GC at last year's Giro was not entertaining at all - we all knew who would win before it even started. I think it's okay for commentators to say that, it doesn't make them "delusional" or "bitter".

NvH is okay, imo—still biased, which is only natural—but at least not as deranged as most on that washed team.

As for whether it’s entertaining or not, it’s fair to have an opinion without being bitter indeed, thats fine, its subjective, but the ratings clearly show that more people want to watch greatness that is Pogi in real time over a borefest of mid performances even if you know the outcome compared to 23 where even on MTF, riders are just pacing to the line together for three weeks until the final TT. I’m saying most(as evident by the numbers), not everyone cause someone just like mid.