Teams & Riders Tadej Pogačar discussion thread

[Charlyghoul]

Let us forget Pog for a moment and say, , 6 or 7 years ago, a brilliant young rider is going to come on the scene , a rider a bit like Merckx who can win everything.
Taking in to account the modern era, etc, he wins just under half of what Eddy did, would you say he he’s now the goat ? No you wouldn’t.
Now if he won around 3/4 of what Merckx did? In the modern era ? Then maybe you can say he’s on that level.
Pog can still get there, but he has some way to go, that’s all I’m saying. You aren’t true cycling fan if you can give him the goat status right now.

 

[hayneplane]

Sometimes that is just how it is. In 1985 and 1986 Lemond and Hinault were head and shoulders above anyone else. Between 1991 and 1995 Indurain dominated, daylight second best.

Froome was not close to Pogacar and Vingegaard's level. So of course there were more riders in the conversation such as Quintana, Valverde (who won just a single grand tour and there was some luck involved in that). And Froome never won big classics or monuments.

Roglic came to he sport later via ski jumping but agree there can be some question marks on his longevity now.

I don't think you can compare what Pogacar has done and is still doing against any of those mentioned - and across both grand tours and one day races. Only Vingegaard is serious competition but he is really a stage racer who doesn't target one day races. Hopefully we see Vingegaard target a Giro or Vuelta. He was amazing in the 2023 Vuelta.

As for fatigue talk, that might be honestly how Pogacar feels but it doesn't seem to slow him. In 2024 he said he was dead after the Tour yet look what he continued to do - win more big races including the words and Lombardy in dominant fashion with long range solos.

Agreed. He is objectively so supreme (W/KG, VAM, obliterating legendary EPO era KOMs) that he will make the rest look in an entirely different league apart from Jonas who is also upper tier across history.

Tours like 2008 are very much the exception as it is very rare for there to be a big battle beyond head to head with the two best riders and even then there is usually a fairly clear top dog.

 

[AmRacer]

Let us forget Pog for a moment and say, , 6 or 7 years ago, a brilliant young rider is going to come on the scene , a rider a bit like Merckx who can win everything.
Taking in to account the modern era, etc, he wins just under half of what Eddy did, would you say he he’s now the goat ? No you wouldn’t.
Now if he won around 3/4 of what Merckx did? In the modern era ? Then maybe you can say he’s on that level.
Pog can still get there, but he has some way to go, that’s all I’m saying. You aren’t true cycling fan if you can give him the goat status right now.

Pog vs Merckx at 26?

 

[Red Lobster]

Maybe Pogacar as a pure climber is better

Pogacar is probably the best climber in the history of the sport; Merckx probably cracks the top 10?

 

[Charlyghoul]

Pogacar is probably the best climber in the history of the sport; Merckx probably cracks the top 10?

Sure , maybe when Pog wins a Roubaix , or a San remo (or seven of them) we can start to talk ?

 

[Charlyghoul]

Pog vs Merckx at 26?

Sure Pog is ahead at 26, but what does it mean in the end? He still has to win so much more to be comparable to Eddy, is he capable ? Sure, but he hasn’t done it yet.
Some accountant sat somewhere is better than both but he never rode a bike, it’s results that matter in the end

 

[hayneplane]

Let us forget Pog for a moment and say, , 6 or 7 years ago, a brilliant young rider is going to come on the scene , a rider a bit like Merckx who can win everything.
Taking in to account the modern era, etc, he wins just under half of what Eddy did, would you say he he’s now the goat ? No you wouldn’t.
Now if he won around 3/4 of what Merckx did? In the modern era ? Then maybe you can say he’s on that level.
Pog can still get there, but he has some way to go, that’s all I’m saying. You aren’t true cycling fan if you can give him the goat status right now.

Since 1990 how many riders have won both multiple monuments and multiple Grand Tours?

Pogacar
Nibali

The list of those who have won at least one of each is much longer:
Cunego
Andy Schleck
Jalabert
Bugno
Roglic
Valverde
Remco

You have to go back to Hinault to find a 2+ time TDF winner that has also won even a single monument prior to Pogacar.

That is a stark illustration of how vanishingly rare it is to be simultaneously the preeminent 3 week racer and a one day superstar.

 

[tobydawq]

Pogacar is probably the best climber in the history of the sport; Merckx probably cracks the top 10?

Page 7 - Teams & Riders - Who are The Top 10 Climbers of All Time

Page 7 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.

forum.cyclingnews.com

Not quite. For the record, the top two are swapped now.

 

[James M]

Valverde is one of three people who have beaten him on GC in a Grand Tour.

A crazy stat that speaks volumes on its own imo, especially considering the age from which its measured.

Pogacar is probably the best climber in the history of the sport; Merckx probably cracks the top 10?

Not even that.

 

[Charlyghoul]

Since 1990 how many riders have won both multiple monuments and multiple Grand Tours?

Pogacar
Nibali

The list of those who have won at least one of each is much longer:
Cunego
Andy Schleck
Jalabert
Bugno
Roglic
Valverde
Remco

You have to go back to Hinault to find a 2+ time TDF winner that has also won even a single monument prior to Pogacar.

That is a stark illustration of how vanishingly rare it is to be simultaneously the preeminent 3 week racer and a one day superstar.

Zoetemelk , Hinault, Merckx, Lemond, Gimondi, Janssen were all tour winners and world champions. In Merckx and Hinaults day those kind of riders who can do it all were quite common, now only Pog has done it since when ? We can both play such a game

 

[dr.eve]

Let us forget Pog for a moment and say, , 6 or 7 years ago, a brilliant young rider is going to come on the scene , a rider a bit like Merckx who can win everything.
Taking in to account the modern era, etc, he wins just under half of what Eddy did, would you say he he’s now the goat ? No you wouldn’t.
Now if he won around 3/4 of what Merckx did? In the modern era ? Then maybe you can say he’s on that level.
Pog can still get there, but he has some way to go, that’s all I’m saying. You aren’t true cycling fan if you can give him the goat status right now.

Thank you. You got exactly to the point why GOAT discussions and fantasies are ridiculous. These people that show this GOAT fascination indeed are a different breed of sports fan. They will see a GOAT in every sport, every couple of years when the previous GOAT is done.

Being offended by the fact that Pogacar is talking about retiring at some point is quite odd. It shows a toxic culture.

It doesn't matter if he's just 26 still. He's been living an extremely hard topsport life since a late teenager already. He surely has other personal dreams, I hope, that are of no concern to us.

Still though I think anyone who is afraid he's not going for 6 tours or attempting PR or MSR. Don't worry, I think he will be active till 2030.

 

[Charlyghoul]

Dude, its not comparable, it wasnt even a sport back then. Youre really struggling. Bill Russell isnt the goat of basketball for the same reasons by almost everyone, exactly the same. Besides, goat debates are just a subjective matter. Trying to turn it into a fact isn't the move man.

Half the Tour peloton this year was asked by TNT who the goat was, and 77% already answered Pog, , its more a norm than anything these days.Take a chill pill its also subjective, I dont get rattled at all if u say merckx its completely fine from a subjective preference standpoint what one value most here. But trying to turn it into a factual argument like you're doing isn't worth the time, you're comparing things that are incomparable its not hard to figure out what Pogacar does is 100x harder to achieve and its not hard to figure out Merckx won alot more.

You trying to factualize something that is subjective is just funny thats all, again the perspective and context thing, as its clearly not a factual matter but subjective.

Purely subjective? Don’t backtrack, can I say Jose Rujano is a better climber than Pog, he just never had the support ?
Let’s make it really simple , subjective, objective, do you think in a modern era that a cyclist achieving less than half of what Merckx did is comparable ? I don’t , and I don’t think most long term cyclists would, less than half is not enough.
Pog has the potential , but he hasn’t done it yet

 

[Unchained]

Los Angeles has good climbs? At least close to Venice beach.

No..
there are many great climbs outside Los Angeles, and a challenging circuit can easily be designed but Venice Beach is silly because Topanga, Malibu area has great stuff, same with areas near Pasadena.. But it's going to be too flat for many kilometers getting to Venice so they are trying to get some photo ops with the beach..You have to get out of greater Los Angeles for good climbing but it's not that far..I don't know for sure but I am thinking that it will make for a boring @15-20 k if you have the finish in Venice Beach.

 

[Extinction]

So what about Vingegaard?
True Merckx was put in trouble by Ocana , but he already had his long term injury, and was he in ‘top form’ the day Ocana put that time in to him? Who knows.
True also that Pog may have been a little young to say he’s truly prime when Vingegaard beat him , but he’d already won the last two tours and beat prime Roglic.
History says that Pog cracked and lost to Vingegaard twice, Merckx was put in trouble, fought back and fortune favoured him and he won the only tour where he struggled somewhat.

Merckx was still in his prime when Ocana gave him like 10 minutes in 73 (if I remember correctly). And only crashing made him lose that Tour. With Vingegaard it's less clear and, in any case, Pog has dominated him since. Granted Vingo had his problems, but still put up his best numbers, so UAE evidently learned hom to "remedy the situation."

 

[Peyroteo94]

Pogacar is probably the best climber in the history of the sport; Merckx probably cracks the top 10?

No.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Since 1990 how many riders have won both multiple monuments and multiple Grand Tours?

Pogacar
Nibali

The list of those who have won at least one of each is much longer:
Cunego
Andy Schleck
Jalabert
Bugno
Roglic
Valverde
Remco

You have to go back to Hinault to find a 2+ time TDF winner that has also won even a single monument prior to Pogacar.

That is a stark illustration of how vanishingly rare it is to be simultaneously the preeminent 3 week racer and a one day superstar.

There is really no debate to be honest. Pogacar is clearly better. No one will say Joe Davis is better than Ronnie O'Sullivan.

 

[AlpRaid]

Merckx was still in his prime when Ocana gave him like 10 minutes in 73 (if I remember correctly). And only crashing made him lose that Tour. With Vingegaard it's less clear and, in any case, Pog has dominated him since. Granted Vingo had his problems, but still put up his best numbers, so UAE evidently learned hom to "remedy the situation."

merckx was already not the merckx of 1969 -- his track accident at Blois in 1969 forever altered his climbing ability.

having said that, Ocana was absolutely AMMMMMMMMMAAAAAAAAAAZING!!!!

 

[Peyroteo94]

No..
there are many great climbs outside Los Angeles, and a challenging circuit can easily be designed but Venice Beach is silly because Topanga, Malibu area has great stuff, same with areas near Pasadena.. But it's going to be too flat for many kilometers getting to Venice so they are trying to get some photo ops with the beach..You have to get out of greater Los Angeles for good climbing but it's not that far..I don't know for sure but I am thinking that it will make for a boring @15-20 k if you have the finish in Venice Beach.

I read they will start in Venice Beach. Good news. They can finish in a better place.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

While the retirement talk seems serious I do think 3 more years are guaranteed. 2028 or 2030 are most likely (so 3 or 5 more seasons). It could be also kind of game to force the sheikhs to release him from Tour duty.

 

[Extinction]

merckx was already not the mercy of 1969 -- his track accident at Blois in 1969 forever altered his climbing ability.

having said that, Ocana was absolutely AMMMMMMMMMAAAAAAAAAAZING!!!!

I'll have to go back over that track incident again, but that's a good historical point.

Eddy Merckx: this much I know

The five-time winner of the Tour de France talks about a lifetime in the saddle, why he didn't race for glory and why he isn't jealous of today's winning cheques, says Andy Pietrasik

www.theguardian.com

 

[Berniece]

I'll have to go back over that track incident again, but that's a good historical point.

Eddy Merckx: this much I know

The five-time winner of the Tour de France talks about a lifetime in the saddle, why he didn't race for glory and why he isn't jealous of today's winning cheques, says Andy Pietrasik

www.theguardian.com

Basically UAE should start paying Pogacar less if they want to squeeze him like a lemon.

If I could have made £6m in a year I wouldn’t have ridden as much. You had to ride a lot back then to make money. When I started, I got a jersey and some equipment. Sometimes I would get the equivalent of €25 to enter a race and €15 prize money.

 

[Ulle97]

Merckx has 5 Tours, 5 Giros and 1 Vuelta.
Pogacar has 4 Tours, 1 Giro and 0 Vueltas.

Still a bit of ground for Pogi to make up.

Is there any race that Pogacar is ahead of Merckx on?? Monuments for example..... not the UAE Tour😬

 

[Extinction]

Merckx has 5 Tours, 5 Giros and 1 Vuelta.
Pogacar has 4 Tours, 1 Giro and 0 Vueltas.

Still a bit of ground for Pogi to make up.

Is there any race that Pogacar is ahead of Merckx on?? Monuments for example..... not the UAE Tour😬

Lombardia

 

[Charlyghoul]

Yes Lombardy the one and only race , yet somehow Pog is above him

 

[Revelation]

If I'd won 4 TdFs, a Giro, a Worlds and all those Classics, and earnt a fortune, I'm not risking my life on 90 km/h descents any more, I'm retiring tomorrow. Like you'd do any different.

Are you seriously trying to argue that retiring at 26, while being by far the best cyclist in the world, is not only not crazy, but something everyone would do?