Teams & Riders Tadej Pogačar discussion thread

[Eddy Evenepoel]

As for the second part, yes, we have more countries, but it seems like the talent pool in some of the traditional countries is shrinking. Meaning that instead of 5 Italians on very high level, we have 1 Italian and 4 more from different countries

I think it’s a bit of a bad argument. Today there are around, what 530 World Tour riders and around 400 Pro Conti riders. With over 900 professional riders, compared to what, maybe 50 in the days of Merckx i think it’s just logical to assume that the general level is much higher today. And that where it before would be 5 great riders from one nation there are still the same (or even more) number at a high level, but because of the general higher level and more nations around the relative level that would be enough to be a top 20 rider in the World before is now maybe equal to a top 50 rider in the World now.

 

[Peyroteo94]

That the riders who won them , would still be winning them now.
Are you just going to ignore how poor international riders have been at the tour? And classics?
How can you argue that the peloton is higher quality now? It makes no difference how many countries are in the peloton if they lack talent to win.
This talent that you say is everywhere, where is it?

You still didn't answer my question but another PR where RdV and Merckx didn't win.
What is your opinion looking to this?

Paris - Roubaix 1971 One day race results

Paris - Roubaix 1971 was won by Roger Rosiers before Herman Van Springel and Marino Basso.

www.procyclingstats.com

 

[Peyroteo94]

But the overall number of professional riders is irrelevant All that matters is the top level of 5 or 10 riders competing against each other.
If Pogacar wasn't here Vingegaard and Van Der Poel would have (even more) ridiculous palmares, and even if you've had 180 countries participating in the Tour, it wouldn't mean a thing.

As for the second part, yes, we have more countries, but it seems like the talent pool in some of the traditional countries is shrinking. Meaning that instead of 5 Italians on very high level, we have 1 Italian and 4 more from different countries. And yes, Pogacar may not have been a pro in the 70's, but that certain Belgian or Italian who is a monster talent and would have been a pro in the 70's isn't pro nowadays because cycling isn't as popular (in his country) or he has better things to do in his life. Heck, Merckx could have been software developer nowaday.
Point is, you don't necessarily gain talents in an absolute tern, You may as well just replace 2 Italians with a Dane and Slovenian

Again, what is more difficult, being the best from a 50 pro riders peloton or the best from a 500 pro riders peloton?

 

[Charlyghoul]

You still didn't answer my question but another PR where RdV and Merckx didn't win.
What is your opinion looking to this?

Paris - Roubaix 1971 One day race results

Paris - Roubaix 1971 was won by Roger Rosiers before Herman Van Springel and Marino Basso.

www.procyclingstats.com

My opinion on the winner is that he was better rider than say, Matthew Hayman.

Can you not see the quality in that top ten ? Several tour winners and monuments winners.
In fact I think all of them won at least major classics ?
It’s a better top ten than even this years Roubaix which has a good top ten

 

[Charlyghoul]

Again, what is more difficult, being the best from a 50 pro riders peloton or the best from a 500 pro riders peloton?

But if 450 of them are poor ?

It’s like boxing, everyone said the giants like Joshua and Fury would dominate past eras, because of physiology, training , nutrition, whatever. Sport moves on.
Then a smaller guy Usyk came along and exposed the lack of boxing skill which has been lost since say Ali’s day.

The cycling fans now who fawn too much over Tadej are a bit like the Joshua and Fury fans were, nobody from yesteryear could beat him, he’s taken things to new levels etc etc.

The ‘watts merchants’ of cycling are like the size merchants of boxing.

Tadej could compete with past champions, like Usyk could. But it doesn’t make him superman either.

 

[snipeheem]

But if 450 of them are poor ?

It’s like boxing, everyone said the giants like Joshua and Fury would dominate past eras, because of physiology, training , nutrition, whatever. Sport moves on.
Then a smaller guy Usyk came along and exposed the lack of boxing skill which has been lost since say Ali’s day.

The cycling fans now who fawn too much over Tadej are a bit like the Joshua and Fury fans were, nobody from yesteryear could beat him, he’s taken things to new levels etc etc.

The ‘watts merchants’ of cycling are like the size merchants of boxing.

Tadej could compete with past champions, like Usyk could. But it doesn’t make him superman either.

Only people who dont understand boxing can claim that Fury or AJ would beat Ali. Anybody who follow boxing closely knows damn well that Ali would have smoke both of them probably TKO both. Ali from 64-67 is the greatest boxer ever even better than Sugar Ray Robinson.

 

[Charlyghoul]

Only people who dont understand boxing can claim that Fury or AJ would beat Ali. Anybody who follow boxing closely knows damn well that Ali would have smoke both of them probably TKO both. Ali from 64-67 is the greatest boxer ever even better than Sugar Ray Robinson.

You’d be surprised how many were saying the size difference was just too great. That they’d be too strong.

The same thing happened with Usyk, go on a boxing forum and there’s good amount of people who think Usyk is the goat, that he’d beat Ali.

I put Pog higher than Usyk, what he’s done means more and is harder to do and he’s much younger. I think he’s a better cyclist than Usyk is a boxer. But what happened with them both is quite similar

 

[AmRacer]

You’re missing the real story. Because of how bad the peloton is now with all these internationals in it, what happens is they all just get in the way of each other when Pog goes up the road, they lack the understanding of racing like eddys Belgians and Italians did.

Pog knows he only needs half a yard and there’s no chance of a cohesive chase behind, he actually has talent more along the lines of a Cunego.

The peloton is much much better now than it was back in the days.

 

[Charlyghoul]

The peloton is much much better now than it was back in the days.

Where’s the proof of that ?

 

[AmRacer]

My opinion on the winner is that he was better rider than say, Matthew Hayman.

Can you not see the quality in that top ten ? Several tour winners and monuments winners.
In fact I think all of them won at least major classics ?
It’s a better top ten than even this years Roubaix which has a good top ten

The thing is that today's peloton is so much better and specialised, just a few GT winners have multiple monuments.
Back in the days, it was much more common.

This is how it is, not the other way around.

 

[AmRacer]

Where’s the proof of that ?

Just read the last couple of hundreds comments. You have no proof of your claims.

 

[snipeheem]

You’d be surprised how many were saying the size difference was just too great. That they’d be too strong.

The same thing happened with Usyk, go on a boxing forum and there’s good amount of people who think Usyk is the goat, that he’d beat Ali.

I put Pog higher than Usyk, what he’s done means more and is harder to do and he’s much younger. I think he’s a better cyclist than Usyk is a boxer. But what happened with them both is quite similar

I know about this opinion that usyk/ali are too small but this is just BS. Skill>size and usyk skills are amazing. Usyk is top5-10 HW ever but his resume is lackin,while Pog won almost everything.

 

[Charlyghoul]

The thing is that today's peloton is so much better and specialised, just a few GT winners have multiple monuments.
Back in the days, it was much more common.

This is how it is, not the other way around.

I get bored of asking but if it’s so specialised there should be more riders consistently in the top ten, even if they’re not pushing the big two.
The racing was more competitive back in the day

 

[Peyroteo94]

I get bored of asking but if it’s so specialised there should be more riders consistently in the top ten, even if they’re not pushing the big two.
The racing was more competitive back in the day

Did you ever see a full stage or monument of Merckx? You talk about domination and it's very possible you never saw him racing.

 

[Charlyghoul]

Just read the last couple of hundreds comments. You have no proof of your claims.

I put loads of proof about international riders doing so poorly.
‘the peloton is just better now and more specialised’ is that all you have got

 

[AmRacer]

I get bored of asking but if it’s so specialised there should be more riders consistently in the top ten, even if they’re not pushing the big two.
The racing was more competitive back in the day

It has been explained multiple times, read back in the thread. I have no desire to repeat it further.

 

[Charlyghoul]

Did you ever see a full stage or monument of Merckx? You talk about domination and it's very possible you never saw him racing.

No not live why ?

 

[AmRacer]

I put loads of proof about international riders doing so poorly.
‘the peloton is just better now and more specialised’ is that all you have got

It is a common known fact.

 

[SHAD0W93]

You’re missing the real story. Because of how bad the peloton is now with all these internationals in it, what happens is they all just get in the way of each other when Pog goes up the road, they lack the understanding of racing like eddys Belgians and Italians did.

Pog knows he only needs half a yard and there’s no chance of a cohesive chase behind, he actually has talent more along the lines of a Cunego.

Wow, Cunego extremely under delivered on his race results with how much talent he possessed.

 

[Charlyghoul]

It has been explained multiple times, read back in the thread. I have no desire to repeat it further.

No it hasn’t.
It’s just the same meaningless statement ‘the peloton is just better now’
The teams have a different dynamic , there are more international riders. That doesn’t mean the quality is ‘better’

 

[AmRacer]

No it hasn’t.
It’s just the same meaningless statement ‘the peloton is just better now’
The teams have a different dynamic , there are more international riders. That doesn’t mean the quality is ‘better’

Yes it has.

 

[Charlyghoul]

Yes it has.

Pogacar is just a great rider, it doesn’t mean he has done the impossible by competing across all the races. It doesn’t mean the other riders are better.
Nibali was hardly a tour great but he did what Pogacar has done, just to a lesser extent, Valverde and Rodriguez too.

a truly great rider should be able to compete across all kinds of races, it should be expected.
Coppi did it, Merckx did it, Hinault did it, now Pog is going it.
Besides Vingo, the top ten is very weak in this era which helps.
Where is Basso, Ulrich, Mancebo, Valverde, Vino ? At least that eras top ten was strong.

I get you love Pog, but he hasn’t done enough to be the goat yet, sorry.

 

[AmRacer]

Pogacar is just a great rider, it doesn’t mean he has done the impossible by competing across all the races. It doesn’t mean the other riders are better.
Nibali was hardly a tour great but he did what Pogacar has done, just to a lesser extent, Valverde and Rodriguez too.

a truly great rider should be able to compete across all kinds of races, it should be expected.
Coppi did it, Merckx did it, Hinault did it, now Pog is going it.
Besides Vingo, the top ten is very weak in this era which helps.
Where is Basso, Ulrich, Mancebo, Valverde, Vino ? At least that eras top ten was strong.

I get you love Pog, but he hasn’t done enough to be the goat yet, sorry.

Again, Pogi is the 🐐. Today's peloton is much much stronger than it has ever been.
It has been explained hundreds of times, just read back.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Pogacar is just a great rider, it doesn’t mean he has done the impossible by competing across all the races. It doesn’t mean the other riders are better.
Nibali was hardly a tour great but he did what Pogacar has done, just to a lesser extent, Valverde and Rodriguez too.

a truly great rider should be able to compete across all kinds of races, it should be expected.
Coppi did it, Merckx did it, Hinault did it, now Pog is going it.
Besides Vingo, the top ten is very weak in this era which helps.
Where is Basso, Ulrich, Mancebo, Valverde, Vino ? At least that eras top ten was strong.

I get you love Pog, but he hasn’t done enough to be the goat yet, sorry.

Mancebo?
You rate Valverde higher than Roglic in GTs for example?

 

[Charlyghoul]

Again, Pogi is the 🐐. Today's peloton is much much stronger than it has ever been.
It has been explained hundreds of times, just read back.

The top ten is one of the weakest ever. Weak era in that respect