Teams & Riders Tadej Pogačar discussion thread

[YavorD]

Numbers show Pogacar is clearly a bigger outlier. Being the best from a group of 40 professional riders is far easier than being the best from a group of 500 professional riders.

No one can ever tell me this is a high level of cycling:
(There are plenty of more examples of 6/7 Belgians in the top10)

Paris - Roubaix 1973 One day race results

Paris - Roubaix 1973 was won by Eddy Merckx before Walter Godefroot and Roger Rosiers.

www.procyclingstats.com

Liège - Bastogne - Liège 1970 One day race results

Liège - Bastogne - Liège 1970 was won by Roger De Vlaeminck before Frans Verbeeck and Eddy Merckx.

www.procyclingstats.com

Ronde van Vlaanderen / Tour des Flandres 1975 One day race results

Ronde van Vlaanderen / Tour des Flandres 1975 was won by Eddy Merckx before Frans Verbeeck and Marc Demeyer.

www.procyclingstats.com

Any reasonable person can see this was not a developed sport in the 70s. This was a national sport. Specially RVV and PR, those races looked like Belgium national championships. These are facts, we just need to look to the top10 in almost every year.
Even in WC, Belgium had like 10 riders in a peloton of 80 riders (10 teams) and can anyone convince me Merckx's 3 titles are similar to the 3 titles of Peter Sagan. Again, any reasonable person can see these facts and understand why Merckx is just the GOAT for some people because of his palmares.

You don't get it, do you? Only 1 or 2, make it 3 including Vingegaard are competition for Pogacar.
You may include 497 riders in MSR if you wish, but if Van Der Poel isn't in the start list, there's no competition. Okay, maybe Ganna, potentially Evenepoel.
In the same time you may have a start list of 40 or even 20 WITH VDP inside and you have much stronger competition.


Absolutely the same goes to TdF, you may send all the pro riders (say 1000) in TdF, but if you don't have Vingegaard, you don't have competition.

 

[Peyroteo94]

You don't get it, do you? Only 1 or 2, make it 3 including Vingegaard are competition for Pogacar.
You may include 497 riders in MSR if you wish, but if Van Der Poel isn't in the start list, there's no competition. Okay, maybe Ganna, potentially Evenepoel.
In the same time you may have a start list of 40 or even 20 WITH VDP inside and you have much stronger competition.


Absolutely the same goes to TdF, you may send all the pro riders (say 1000) in TdF, but if you don't have Vingegaard, you don't have competition.

There isn't competition because Pogacar is a big outlier, you don't get it, do you? This just shows why he is the best ever. Competition is way better but he is also way better, c'mon, it's not that hard...
If you can't understand simple maths is hard to discuss something with you (being the best from a sample of 500 is different from being the best from a sample of 40. Simple maths)

 

[YavorD]

There isn't competition because Pogacar is a big outlier, you don't get it, do you? This just shows why he is the best ever. Competition is way better but he is also way better, c'mon, it's not that hard...
If you can't understand simple maths is hard to discuss something with you (being the best from a sample of 500 is different from being the best from a sample of 40. Simple maths)

But the sheer number of riders isn't too relevant. The level of the best 5 riders (who could be competitive) is far more important than the sheer number.
If you don't have Vingegaard in the Tour, you don't have competition and it doesn't matter how many riders you have.

 

[Peyroteo94]

But the sheer number of riders isn't too relevant. The level of the best 5 riders (who could be competitive) is far more important than the sheer number.
If you don't have Vingegaard in the Tour, you don't have competition and it doesn't matter how many riders you have.

This post is so wrong on many ways, it's hard to even counter this but let's do it.
In a universe of 500 riders, the chance of having good competition is higher compared to an universe of 40 riders and if you are so good that have no competition in a universe of 500 riders, it's because you are an outlier. You don't need to be such an outlier to be the best in a universe of 40 riders, specially when those 40 riders don't specialise in anything and race everything you race.

 

[BubbaChuck]

So you are saying,if you add 450 ballers in 60s wont change anything.well better not from slovenia lol.

 

[snipeheem]

I mean everybody with brain knows that pog is the goat, its not even close. Its reason why Jordan is the goat in NBA but not Wilt.

 

[YavorD]

This post is so wrong on many ways, it's hard to even counter this but let's do it.
In a universe of 500 riders, the chance of having good competition is higher compared to an universe of 40 riders and if you are so good that have no competition in a universe of 500 riders, it's because you are an outlier. You don't need to be such an outlier to be the best in a universe of 40 riders, specially when those 40 riders don't specialise in anything and race everything you race.

Are you telling me then aht if you replace Vingegaard and Van Der Poel with 500 random riders the competition will be stronger?

Nah, your competition is only as strong, as the top 5 or 10 riders are. Froome didn't have much competition in the Tour (despite having 500 pros), Pogacar gas strong competition.

 

[Shortcut]

But the sheer number of riders isn't too relevant. The level of the best 5 riders (who could be competitive) is far more important than the sheer number.
If you don't have Vingegaard in the Tour, you don't have competition and it doesn't matter how many riders you have.

Without Pogacar, Jonas would have 5 TdFs wins. And he wouldn't have really problems to win it next 2 years. He would be seen as LA in his days and the gap to others would be the same as in times of LA. And then imagine there would be someone who would beat LA without any problems-that guy would have been seen as unreal and 100% GOAT. You want to say gap to others needs to be small if you want to be GOAT. Like in world of no Tadej and Jonas, Remco would have been seen in that case as a GOAT, since he would win a lot of races including TdF and because he would have problems with Lipowitz, Onley, Roglic, Almeida, Ayuso, Del Toro so he would have a "great competition".

 

[2WpK]

And nowadays monuments are race between 2 riders. If Evenepoel is in good shape, you can say 3..
Yeeeeah, the competition is oooo big these days that 2 risers have won 16 monuments between them. In the last 5 years.

You are confusing dominance with lack of competition

 

[snipeheem]

Without Pogacar, Jonas would have 5 TdFs wins. And he wouldn't have really problems to win it next 2 years. He would be seen as LA in his days and the gap to others would be the same as in times of LA. And then imagine there would be someone who would beat LA without any problems-that guy would have been seen as unreal and 100% GOAT. You want to say gap to others needs to be small if you want to be GOAT. Like in world of no Tadej and Jonas, Remco would have been seen in that case as a GOAT, since he would win a lot of races including TdF and because he would have problems with Lipowitz, Onley, Roglic, Almeida, Ayuso, Del Toro so he would have a "great competition".

One of the best post on this forum ever.

 

[Rob5091]

It aint easy being the GOAT -
https://velo.outsideonline.com/road...s-burnout-new-rivals-ahead-of-lombardia-raid/

The legs might still be good, but is the spark fading? Pogačar’s been sounding world-weary since his case of the mid-summer blues at the Tour de France.
With victory on Saturday, he’ll end the season with 20 wins, the most in the elite men’s peloton for the third time in his career.

He became the first rider to win back-to-back Tour de France-world championship double, and could finish on the podium of all five monuments in one season.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Without Pogacar, Jonas would have 5 TdFs wins. And he wouldn't have really problems to win it next 2 years. He would be seen as LA in his days and the gap to others would be the same as in times of LA. And then imagine there would be someone who would beat LA without any problems-that guy would have been seen as unreal and 100% GOAT. You want to say gap to others needs to be small if you want to be GOAT. Like in world of no Tadej and Jonas, Remco would have been seen in that case as a GOAT, since he would win a lot of races including TdF and because he would have problems with Lipowitz, Onley, Roglic, Almeida, Ayuso, Del Toro so he would have a "great competition".

It's just simple maths, if you are the best by far from a group of 500 professional riders, it's way more difficult and unique than being the best (by far) from a group of 40 riders. The percentile where Pogacar is, is not the same from where Merckx is. How does he not get it?
And in pro cycling, since the 90s, riders no longer race every race, they peak for specific races according their abilities. This makes Pogacar's dominance even more special.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

It's just simple maths, if you are the best by far from a group of 500 professional riders, it's way more difficult and unique than being the best (by far) from a group of 40 riders. The percentile where Pogacar is, is not the same from where Merckx is. How does he not get it?
And in pro cycling, since the 90s, riders no longer race every race, they peak for specific races according their abilities. This makes Pogacar's dominance even more special.

It's pretty obvious. For ten the best guys out of 50 there's only one best out of 500. It's not the same to be the best in your school as the best in your district.

 

[Peyroteo94]

One of the best post on this forum ever.

We should vote at the end of the season about the best post of the year (I would like worst too for "comedy" but I'm not sure if mods allow that due to breaking forum rules).

 

[Berniece]

There isn't competition because Pogacar is a big outlier, you don't get it, do you? This just shows why he is the best ever. Competition is way better but he is also way better, c'mon, it's not that hard...
If you can't understand simple maths is hard to discuss something with you (being the best from a sample of 500 is different from being the best from a sample of 40. Simple maths)

No you don’t understand it. Pogacar is dominant, Merckx was even more dominant.

 

[Jan the Man]

No you don’t understand it. Pogacar is dominant, Merckx was even more dominant.

I don’t like and don’t really want to compare cross generations - the debate is purely subjective and there is no ‘correct’ answer.

I’ve watched since the early 90s and even since then it’s evolved. It’s a nice debate for people to have but Merckx retired 40 years before Pogi became pro and is closer in generation to Bobet, Plessier, Coppi, Bartali etc than Pogi.

Surely how relatively ‘dominant’ either of them is in their particular generation (‘dominant’ itself i guess being subjective - do people mean by win no. manner of wins or type of wins etc) is not particularly relevant as it ignores all the other subjective arguments raised about strength and depth of competition/specialisations.

 

[Peyroteo94]

I think he will win but I'm not so sure if he should wait for the last 2.5 km to attack on Ganda. He will not have time to create a big gap (1') and will probably do the descent with just 30" ahead. A mechanical can happen and he will be caught if this happens.

 

[Peyroteo94]

34'30". Bruyneel is telling what it's visible to everyone's eyes. Pogacar won 2 TdF without being optimized.

View: https://youtu.be/10O5H_7swec?si=xWnGVrv7LiziL9W6

 

[BubbaChuck]

''After Vine’s leadout Pog went solo with ~4.5k to the top and took over a minute off his own Ganda KOM.''

 

[Peyroteo94]

''After Vine’s leadout Pog went solo with ~4.5k to the top and took over a minute off his own Ganda KOM.''

Source?

 

[BubbaChuck]

https://www.strava.com/activities/9994234323

 

[snipeheem]

''After Vine’s leadout Pog went solo with ~4.5k to the top and took over a minute off his own Ganda KOM.''

Yea, its over