Teams & Riders Tadej Pogačar discussion thread

[Peyroteo94]

In terms of technique most of PR sectors are easy-peasy compared to average cyclocross routes: just pushing watts on a straight. See what happened this year: Pog misjudged a cobbled turn. If you give him a few months of proper cyclocross training then it's a different story but it's not happening (maybe after the end of his road career).

Technique aside, most of cyclocross routes probably fit MVP better. A lot of anaerobic intervals and it's generally more about watts than sustained watts per kilo.

I can't see a world where Pogacar isn't better than Nys for example.

 

[hayneplane]

Yes, maybe the national championship. But before 2018, he competed in several disciplines and more than one race. Although always at an amateur level in Slovenia.

Unlike @Peyroteo94 , I don't think he should get into cyclocross at this point. He doesn't do it foryears, and unlike other road cyclists who do, he has to compete in stage races. None of the current cyclocross riders compete to win in a Grand Tour or even the overall classification of a one-week stage race.

But it's clear he enjoys other disciplines. He often rides gravel with Mathews.

It would be no surprise if he went on to do the Gravel events once he steps away from full laser focus on his road goals. He could likely be competitive there even 2 years after his road career has stopped being dominant.

 

[Peyroteo94]

I don't really get this. Why? He's so much stronger than almost anyone in that discipline, 95% of them aren't even on the same planet. He's a fantastic bike handler. Sure, there are some technical hurdles for him, but is that really enough to make a bunch of (let's be honest) second-rate riders (minus MVDP, WVA, and TP) able to compete with him?

Strikes me I'd not make a lot of money betting against Pogi in any discipline of bike racing. Except downhill and enduro...

Because he doesn't like Pogacar. It's obvious to be honest. The same thing was said about PR.

 

[Peyroteo94]

It's a lifelong pursuit by those guys, too. Those bike handling and tactical skills come from many, many reps. Not to mention racing among the top peer group to know capabilities. There are a dozen 'crossers that could win a WC RR if they shifted focus. Not so many GT guys that could get into the top 30 of a WC XC race.
Tadej could want to dabble but he'd be relegated to the 6th row and, maybe; get some intense training. That's the time of year he should be recovering.

Who for example?

 

[Cycling111]

I just want them to race cyclocross to shut some mouths

What does it matter? He doesn't have to shut anyone up.

Then they'd ask him to prove he can win track cycling . Those who always find fault with him will always find something to belittle him with.

That's how people are with stars. I remember when somesaid Messi had to win the World Cup. After the World Cup, they said he hadn't achieved some absurd statistic. And if he achieves that absurd statistic, they'll demand something else.

 

[Peyroteo94]

What does it matter? He doesn't have to shut anyone up.

Then they'd ask him to prove he can win track cycling . Those who always find fault with him will always find something to belittle him with.

That's how people are with stars. I remember when somesaid Messi had to win the World Cup. After the World Cup, they said he hadn't achieved some absurd statistic.

Terrible example. The worldcup is the most important trophy in football. Cyclocross? Well, most people don't really care outside of belgian and dutch people.

 

[Jan the Man]

It's a lifelong pursuit by those guys, too. Those bike handling and tactical skills come from many, many reps. Not to mention racing among the top peer group to know capabilities. There are a dozen 'crossers that could win a WC RR if they shifted focus. Not so many GT guys that could get into the top 30 of a WC XC race.
Tadej could want to dabble but he'd be relegated to the 6th row and, maybe; get some intense training. That's the time of year he should be recovering.

I have no intention of denigrating XC - but I struggle with the premise you present as to the number of XCs competitive in a world RR.

Clearly XC racers targettheir XC races but the transition is not as easy as you present and there is far more more money from a salary perspective in road racing and why MVP in particular but also Wout and Pidcock (also.factoring his MTB skill) are exceptional. Look at Nys' transition. I have no doubt that Pog would be competitive in a XC race if he put his mind to it. Obviously Not to VDP level (but who is), as he's the best there has been at XC, but otherwise competitive.

 

[Peyroteo94]

In terms of technique most of PR sectors are easy-peasy compared to average cyclocross routes: just pushing watts on a straight. See what happened this year: Pog misjudged a cobbled turn. If you give him a few months of proper cyclocross training then it's a different story but it's not happening (maybe after the end of his road career).

Technique aside, most of cyclocross routes probably fit MVP better. A lot of anaerobic intervals and it's generally more about watts than sustained watts per kilo.

That's not the point. The point is the same thing was said about PR even if it's not like cyclocross (type of effort).

 

[Cycling111]

Terrible example. The worldcup is the most important trophy in football. Cyclocross? Well, most people don't really care outside of belgian and dutch people.

That's why I'm telling you, Pogacar doesn't have anything to prove in cyclocross. But even if cyclocross were the most important thing and Pogacar won, afterwards they would say that he has to achieve something else.

Pogacar doesn't need to do cyclocross; he's the best cyclist of his generation and will retire as one of the best in history. It's others who have to prove.

 

[Cycling111]

@Oldman
Which 10 cyclocross cyclists could win a rodad world championship? Pidcock hasn't won one yet, Van Aert either, and Van Aert has had several opportunities, being a much more versatile road cyclist than almost everyone who does cyclocross.

I just want to remind that Pogacar has beaten Van Aert at De Ronde and even in his Paris-Roubaix debut. How many cyclocross riders are better than Van Aert on the road? Only Van der Poel and depends on the race.

Please, let's not lose perspective.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Maijka will definitely be missed. He's the best hill pace setter tactically and consistently. So much so he discouraged attacks when he was close to blowing himself up but his lack of "tells" kept the competition in place. Right up to the time the boom got lowered.
Left to do his own thing he was what Yates embodied in his best efforts. Given a gap; he seldom came back. Not sure McNulty has that level of skill. Ayuso could be a threat...most of the time to his own team.

Majka is very reliable and loyal to Pogacar. These attributes are not easy to find.
For example McNulty doesn't look like a rider willing to die for his leader.
I still think Pogacar could win AGR (he was underwhelming compared to FW and LBL, I think we all agree on this) if McNulty was marking Evenepoel. I don't even know why he didn't jump on Remco's wheel the moment he attacked (flat section). Probably he was close to his limit but he could follow there even if he would have blown later.
On the other hand Ayuso was only helpful (for teammates not named Pogacar) when UAE had the "numbers card".

 

[Peyroteo94]

@Oldman
Which 10 cyclocross cyclists could win a rodad world championship? Pidcock hasn't won one yet, Van Aert either, and Van Aert has had several opportunities, being a much more versatile road cyclist than almost everyone who does cyclocross.

Please, let's not lose perspective.

WVA was able to win a WC despite never winning it once. He was closed (for example) in Tokyo (ORR), was second twice in WCRR.
On the other hand, Pidcock never was close to win a WC

 

[Cycling111]

Obviously, road cycling is the most important discipline in cycling, so it makes no sense to suggest that 10 cyclocross riders could win a world championship and don't even try.

Only four of them can achieve it: Van der Poel, Van Aert, Pidcock, and Nys. And everything indicates that Vaert may retire without winning one, despite having had opportunities like Alaphilippe's World Championships, which were also races that suited him well.

I never thought I'd read that for undervaluing Pogacar, the same year he finished Paris-Roubaix ahead of Van Aert . If Pogacar beat Van Aert in Paris-Roubaix, are we really supposed to believe that riders like Vandeputte could win a road world championship against him?
That last statement makes no sense. Not even Pidcock can beat Pogacar at Strade Bianche, so how are seven other cyclocross riders going to beat him in any road world championship?
Those riders wouldn't even beat Ben Healy in a road world championship. They're not good on the road; otherwise, they'd already be winning there.

The bottom line is that no matter what Pogacar does, some people live in a dichotomy.

If he wins, they obsess over his "clinical" performance, but on the other hand, they find fault with him, saying he's not that good. They have this constant need to find the negative side of everything, to the point of contradicting themselves. It's either he's not that good or it's all just "clinical."

This happens to all the greats of his generation. The example I gave of Messi is very clear. Before, they demanded the World Cup from him; now those same people say the World Cup isn't so important anymore, and they'll always find some excuse or complaint. Jordan is also criticized for not winning more rings than Chamberlain or for some statistic that LeBron has. And if the debate shifts to the positive side, they'll talk about "clinical" performance or controversial refereeing decisions. It's very boring.
It is the cyclocross cyclists who usually want to prove that they can compete and win on the road.

Pogacar doesn't have to prove anything in cyclocross.

 

[Berniece]

Against MvdP, absolutely. Against the "other cyclocross guys", with some training and on a not very technical course, I'm not so sure he wouldn't be competitive. He probably wouldn't win but he wouldn't get destroyed, I don't believe that. At the very least he can push 50w more than guys of similar weight there, that's a lot

On most courses he would get destroyed. It’s not only about being able to push 50W more. MVDP and WVA do different trainings to be competitive. Not just technical training, but being able to give it all in 1 hour. Not like a bike race of 5 hours

 

[red_flanders]

Now I really want to see him ride one.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

On most courses he would get destroyed. It’s not only about being able to push 50W more. MVDP and WVA do different trainings to be competitive. Not just technical training, but being able to give it all in 1 hour. Not like a bike race of 5 hours

This is not a valid point as Pogacar has a monster anaerobic threshold (max. effort of around 40-70 minutes). In terms of power anaerobic intervals is what makes MVP such a beast there (as well as generally big threshold power: in CX watts more important than watts/kg, and very large VO2max for post-intervals recovery). As for technique it's obvious that Pogacar is way behind MVDP and WVA and would need a lot of training.

 

[Cycling111]

Now I really want to see him ride one.

It is the cyclocross cyclists who usually want to prove that they can compete and win on the road

I want to see Vandeputte and those other 7 cyclists who can beat him in a road world championship if even Pidcock couldn't beat him in Strade Bianche after an accident.

Be content with having seen him at Paris-Roubaix . It had been more than 30 years since the reigning Tour de France champion had competed at Paris-Roubaix.

 

[Berniece]

This is not a valid point as Pogacar has a monster anaerobic threshold (max. effort of around 40-70 minutes). In terms of power anaerobic intervals is what makes MVP such a beast there (as well as generally big threshold power, and very large VO2max for post-intervals recovery). As for technique it's obvious that Pogacar is way behind MVDP and WVA and would need a lot of training.

Not only behind those two. He would lose a sand race against Lauren’s Sweeck too. And there are multiple examples where he would struggle against others. He would lose more than he would win. It’s a different discipline.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Pogacar's most remarkable win is an one hour effort going full gas.

View: https://youtu.be/YZiy-OCJ5vA?si=YVdmQoZSEHMq1p9s


The question is: Can Pogacar be competitive in cyclocross after working on his technique? I think so.

 

[Peyroteo94]

In gravel, there are zero doubts in my head Pogacar would cook Veermersch easily.

 

[Cookster15]

Just how big is cyclocross, or is it only big in Belgium and Holland? I am only really aware of that sport thanks to MVDP's exploits.

As for Pogacar, obviously the physiological and skill demands for cyclocross are much different to road racing and grand tour racing in particular. But if Pogi can come close in P-R and Flanders then I guess it makes sense he would be hugely competitive if he wanted to be.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Not only behind those two. He would lose a sand race against Lauren’s Sweeck too. And there are multiple examples where he would struggle against others. He would lose more than he would win. It’s a different discipline.

I'm not that familiar with specialities in CX. It's obvious that Pogacar would need a lot of training anyway. In terms of pure physics (assuming Pogacar devotes a lot of time to work on his technique) short anaerobic intervals and more focus on watts than watts/kg would give an advantage to a mega-talent like MVP or WVA. Other than them I wouldn't bet against (well prepared) Pogacar vs guys with inferior engines.

 

[Cycling111]

In gravel, there are zero doubts in my head Pogacar would cook Veermersch easily.

Obviously, he was far superior to him in Paris-Roubaix, the terrain being the most difficult for Pogacar and the best for Vermeersch.

But nobody cares about the gravel world championship.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Obviously, he was far superior to him in Paris-Roubaix, the terrain being the most difficult for Pogacar and the best for Vermeersch.

But nobody cares about the gravel world championship.

Strade is the gravel championships of the World Tour.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Technique is overrated (very important though). Cyclocross is still about watts, if it wasn't Pidcock would not lose a race, specially against MVP or WVA.
Pogacar has way more watts than any other rider excluding MVP and WVA.