Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Krzysztof_O]

Tbh talent is such a vague term here which people will understand in different ways. I do agree that Pog is a better rider overall, but I'm not that certain about Pogacar just striking back next time.

I think Vingegaard hit a level Pogacar absolutely didn't expect. But I also think that when Pogacar said he didn't feel the same after Granon he's full of baloney. In interviews he seems very dismissive that he did anythign wrong, while before the Tour there were some rumors out of UAE that seemed pretty damn smug about how good he was.

Vinge's level was phenomenal plus he was helped by the team during two crucial stages: cobbles and Granon. But every year is different, I'm not sure if he will able to replicate this form again. I rate Pog's consistency higher than Dane's. But we will see, it's close to 50-50 for these two guys come the next July with maybe slight edge to the defending champion.

 

[Red Rick]

Vinge's level was phenomenal plus he was helped by the team during two crucial stages: cobbles and Granon. But every year is different, I'm not sure if he will able to replicate this form again. I rate Pog's consistency higher than Dane's. But we will see, it's close to 50-50 for these two guys come the next July with maybe slight edge to the defending champion.

I am quite positive they'll both hit similar forms next year, barring accidents or something.

The bigger question is how much better Vingegaard actually was considering his self destructiong on the Galibier and Spandelles/descent. Also, I think that Vingegaard is naturally a very passive rider which might come to hurt him against Pogacar in future TdFs.

 

[pman]

Let's then assume not all pros do it. But, even so, can we really believe that a Tour with an average speed of 42 kph bespeaks of cleanliness? Answer: no. Well then, is it possible that those in the top say 30 are on just bread and water? Answer: no. That's because for the winner to average 42 km there must be high octane fuel driving the peleton. Hence if the top 30 are doped to some capacity then the rest of the peleton is too, with only possible few exceptions, because they are less strong riders, who, even to finish at that average speed, would need pharmacological assistance. At this point we must realize that if not all pros do it (all the time), to be of any consequence at the biggest World Tour races it cannot be avoided. Unless we were daft enough to believe that a Tour won at 42 kph, and what this implies for the whole group, is possible without it.

I remember being rebuked for bringing up how fast the Tour was raced. I heard a lot about how the speed of a race is irrelevant because it's all about course design, etc. With that, I agreed then and I agree now that the speed of the 22 Tour was eyebrow raising. More alarming was the gap between the 1 and 2 and then 2 and the rest of top 10. With that said, here we go again going down the doping rabbit hole except this time it's with Ving instead of Pog.

 

[Extinction]

I remember being rebuked for bringing up how fast the Tour was raced. I heard a lot about how the speed of a race is irrelevant because it's all about course design, etc. With that, I agreed then and I agree now that the speed of the 22 Tour was eyebrow raising. More alarming was the gap between the 1 and 2 and then 2 and the rest of top 10. With that said, here we go again going down the doping rabbit hole except this time it's with Ving instead of Pog.

It's not a rabbit whole. Doping simply has not gone away. Course design or no course design, speeds simply don't keep increasing in the age of "clean cycling." There has been enough variety in courses to gleen the big picture, which suggests a sport no cleaner than before. After things like the bio passpprt and MPCC we should have seen, at the very least, a leveling off, but really a lowering, of average velocity. Yet not only did that not happen, but races actually have been ridden faster. No marginal gains can account for it in the absence of pharmacological enhancement, which means doping. And not just Vingegaard, but systematic practice throughout the peleton. Ricco and others have talked about new as yet undetectable porducts and, of course, genetic doping, which for a decade or so has been discussed as the new e frontier of illicit performance enhancement, which only the mega budgets would have access to.

 

[pman]

It's not a rabbit whole. Doping simply has not gone away. Course design or no course design, speeds simply don't keep increasing in the age of "clean cycling." There has been enough variety in courses to gleen the big picture, which suggests a sport no cleaner than before. After things like the bio passpprt and MPCC we should have seen, at the very least, a leveling off, but really a lowering, of average velocity. Yet not only did that not happen, but races actually have been ridden faster. No marginal gains can account for it in the absence of pharmacological enhancement, which means doping. And not just Vingegaard, but systematic practice throughout the peleton. Ricco and others have talked about new as yet undetectable porducts and, of course, genetic doping, which for a decade or so has been discussed as the new e frontier of illicit performance enhancement, which only the mega budgets would have access to.

All fair points. I just don't understand the point of focusing on it. Doping has been around for many, many decades in the sport. It's there, we choose to watch anyway. I think some of it is the fact that it's November and we miss our sport. The Tour Down Under is less than 2 months away!

 

[Extinction]

All fair points. I just don't understand the point of focusing on it. Doping has been around for many, many decades in the sport. It's there, we choose to watch anyway. I think some of it is the fact that it's November and we miss our sport. The Tour Down Under is less than 2 months away!

I don't focus upon it and, by now, could not care less. Perhaps we are on the same page. I don't pretend that what I see is "real." But I'm not so stupid as to think that what I see is without pharmacological enhancement.

 

[pman]

I don't focus upon it and, by now, could not care less. Perhaps we are on the same page. I don't pretend that what I see is "real." But I'm not so stupid as to think that what I see is without pharmacological enhancement.

I think we are on the same page. My biggest issue is with the people who weaponize doping, which is what drew me to this thread in the first place.

 

[Extinction]

I think we are on the same page. My biggest issue is with the people who weaponize doping, which is what drew me to this thread in the first place.

Weaponizing doping only has a place when it turns donkies into race horses on teams that preach we are holier than thou, but use omertà and other mafioso techniques to silence adversaries, and have the brandwith to get the governing body to cover up or the budgets to buy legal loopholes to get a positive overturned. Otherwise just watch and enjoy thè show.

 

[Ripper]

Team almost made a sweep of the stages.

Good times are ahead

 

[Nick2413]

Weaponizing doping only has a place when it turns donkies into race horses on teams that preach we are holier than thou, but use omertà and other mafioso techniques to silence adversaries, and have the brandwith to get the governing body to cover up or the budgets to buy legal loopholes to get a positive overturned. Otherwise just watch and enjoy thè show.

I think a lot of those things are happening without our knowledge. There are definitely teams that have the budget to afford better substances/practices and also pay off relevant entities. It’s not always going to be like Armstrong.

 

[Aimar16]

Team almost made a sweep of the stages.

Good times are ahead

Somehow the UAE team looked as weak as ever. Like yesterday's stage Pog was isolated while Bahrain had 5 guys

 

[Ripper]

Somehow the UAE team looked as weak as ever. Like yesterday's stage Pog was isolated while Bahrain had 5 guys

Weird, right?

 

[Extinction]

I think a lot of those things are happening without our knowledge. There are definitely teams that have the budget to afford better substances/practices and also pay off relevant entities. It’s not always going to be like Armstrong.

Right and then there's, you know, the age old paradox: when do effective doping controls work against the economic interests driving any sport? Either sport is totally clean, but this means 100 percent anti-doping efficiency so nobody can dope, or else the governing body must concede that it's best to catch a few dopers here and there to maintain honorable appearances, but not bring down the house with catching too many Big fish on teams too big to fail.

 

[Mex_17]

I see Tadej has vastly ramped up his doping regimen. He blows by everyone today, including Vingegaard, to catch up to Gaudu. Then the announcers are talking about how exhausted Tadej must be, and in the last 500m, he sprints away, uphill, practically passing the motorbikes in the process.

"Incredible!"

After watching today, I think I'll pass on watching the TdF, or at least the mountain stages, because it's going to be as big a farce as it was in 2021. It's mind boggling to me that Pogacar is able to dope this hard, and never get caught. Are they even trying to catch dopers? Or is the new strategy to ignore it, and let them dope?

 

[Krzysztof_O]

I see Tadej has vastly ramped up his doping regimen. He blows by everyone today, including Vingegaard, to catch up to Gaudu. Then the announcers are talking about how exhausted Tadej must be, and in the last 500m, he sprints away, uphill, practically passing the motorbikes in the process.

"Incredible!"

After watching today, I think I'll pass on watching the TdF, or at least the mountain stages, because it's going to be as big a farce as it was in 2021. It's mind boggling to me that Pogacar is able to dope this hard, and never get caught. Are they even trying to catch dopers? Or is the new strategy to ignore it, and let them dope?

I don't think he's stronger than last year. Recall his form last spring, the invincible aura he had. Even when he blew RVV everybody was stunned by his performance. Whatever the doping strategy is for Tadej, I haven't noticed any significant change compared to 2021-2022. As for the Tour, make no mistake the Danish mutant will be ready as well.

 

[Extinction]

I don't think he's stronger than last year. Recall his form last spring, the invincible aura he had. Even when he blew RVV everybody was stunned by his performance. Whatever the doping strategy is for Tadej, I haven't noticed any significant change compared to 2021-2022. As for the Tour, make no mistake the Danish mutant will be ready as well.

He has seemed to me leaner and maybe even stronger than last year, honestly. Winning so frequently and dominantly, even led Remco to kid him with "can you stop winning now please?" This sends the message he is even more impressive than this time last year.

 

[pastronef]

I see Tadej has vastly ramped up his doping regimen. He blows by everyone today, including Vingegaard, to catch up to Gaudu. Then the announcers are talking about how exhausted Tadej must be, and in the last 500m, he sprints away, uphill, practically passing the motorbikes in the process.

"Incredible!"

After watching today, I think I'll pass on watching the TdF, or at least the mountain stages, because it's going to be as big a farce as it was in 2021. It's mind boggling to me that Pogacar is able to dope this hard, and never get caught. Are they even trying to catch dopers? Or is the new strategy to ignore it, and let them dope?

Jumbo/WVA/Vingegaard are invisible to you, or you are a Jumbo fan. that's fine

 

[veganrob]

He hasn't done anything yet to suggest he has stepped up his doping program. He has always raced like this. I think he just wants to let everyone know he is fit and will be a problem for Jumbo in the Tour.

 

[ppanther92]

I see Tadej has vastly ramped up his doping regimen. He blows by everyone today, including Vingegaard, to catch up to Gaudu. Then the announcers are talking about how exhausted Tadej must be, and in the last 500m, he sprints away, uphill, practically passing the motorbikes in the process.

"Incredible!"

After watching today, I think I'll pass on watching the TdF, or at least the mountain stages, because it's going to be as big a farce as it was in 2021. It's mind boggling to me that Pogacar is able to dope this hard, and never get caught. Are they even trying to catch dopers? Or is the new strategy to ignore it, and let them dope?

Just look at last years Tirreno. Pogacar crushed Vignegaard. Still in summer it was not enough. I am not seeing anything really different this year yet. Although I do think Pogacar will find fuel in last years defeat. But your assessment is kind of weird when its so far just a replication of what we have seen last year. Basically by Pogacar AND Vingegaard. Won't draw conclusions for the TdF by that.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Following today's monstrous attack (gaining 5 seconds for a moment) dr Inigo Milan realizes that it will take some time to prepare a proper watt bomb.

 

[QuickZulu]

He completely toyed with them up that MTF today. That was ridiculously easy for him and I wonder what sort of regime they put him on over the winter.

 

[noob]

Following today's monstrous attack (gaining 5 seconds for a moment) dr Inigo Milan realizes that it will take some time to prepare a proper watt bomb.

He migjht have spent more time on Almeida as well

 

[Krzysztof_O]

He completely toyed with them up that MTF today. That was ridiculously easy for him and I wonder what sort of regime they put him on over the winter.

I have a completely opposite impression. He attacked hard and just couldn't drop Vinge & Gaudu for good. In the last kms the pace was clearly stronger (as signaled by Vinge's problems) when Gaudu was in front. It seems that the Frenchman was actually the strongest on that climb as Pog had no business to slow down and let Vinge hang there, he surely wanted to strike Vinge a mental blow but couldn't.

 

[ppanther92]

He completely toyed with them up that MTF today. That was ridiculously easy for him and I wonder what sort of regime they put him on over the winter.

⏱️ COL DE LA COUiLLOLE (15.48 km, 7.56 %, 1170 m) | #ParisNice

Paris-Nice
2017 | 41:54 | Richie Porte
2023 | 43:51 | Tadej Pogacar

Mercan'Tour Classic Alpes-Maritimes
2022 | 43:50 | Group of 14 riders, led by Groupama-FDJ

 

[MartinGT]

LOL on d'Eze