Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[pastronef]

What blows my mind is that ten years ago Quintana who was the stand out climber bar froome or contador is minutes behind in every mountain we see today. Just makes you shake your head that those great Quintana performances wouldn't finish top 20 today

well, the Froome of ten years ago would be 21st with Quintana. (dear me I remember when people were saying "cycling is in danger" when Sky won the TDF)

 

[Netserk]

well, the Froome of ten years ago would be 21st with Quintana. (dear me I remember when people were saying "cycling is in danger" when Sky won the TDF)

How do you think we got here?

 

[the delgados]

Tadej's masterful performances on the bike are equaled by his post-race PR performances.
Step 1: Credit your teammates for all their hard work.
Step 2: Try to downplay your performance by saying you were really hurting in the final 2 km. It's like saying the riders couldn't hurt me, but the mountain certainly did.

 

[Nick2413]

I love how it’s so obvious food/nutrition aren’t the reason for these performances that we’re not even allowed to suggest it on the main forum aka “foodcoach app”

 

[Extinction]

Did they go after Sepp Kuss winning the Vuelta? Did they go after Horner winning the same in 2013? Journalists are never there when we need them. Its not always nationalistic.

No, but this does not diminish my point. They aren't going after anyone now, for there aren't any politically correct targets.

 

[the delgados]

I love how it’s so obvious food/nutrition aren’t the reason for these performances that we’re not even allowed to suggest it on the main forum aka “foodcoach app”

Are you saying that the non-doping-talk moderators on another forum are laughing at those who claim things like rice cakes are reasons for Tadej's majestic rides?
Has it become that obvious?
TMK-Rol? You there? What say you?

 

[MartinGT]

GT Triple crown this season?

 

[pastronef]

GT Triple crown this season?

I did read a tweet after Strade Bianche that went "and he won't even stand a chance next July"

I agree with that tweet

 

[red_flanders]

@red_flanders: The point about David Walsh stands. He might have lost credibility at the end but there are no inquisitive journalists these days. Else at least one journalist would be asking questions if what we are witnessing can be believed. But lazy journalism is the norm these days. If you can make a good living easy, why challenge the status quo with the stress that would bring. Just report the show and don't worry about how.

Welp. The point about the lack of media hitters is valid, but that's not what I was commenting on. In reality cycling journalism is the same now as it was during his era, a bunch of guys making their living off the sport. Lazy or rather self-interested reporting was always the norm. Walsh went after Armstrong, not doping. He avoided the larger issue consistently before/during/after his crusade against Armstrong. Just like with the self-serving journalists who didn't want to spit in the soup, Walsh's crusade was self-interested, really the only difference was that there was Cancer Jesus to bring down. Quite a scoop. Going after doping didn't pay, didn't get the clicks as we say now. Taking down an American hero paid. He was just a different kind of self-interested shill.

That said, I don't blame him a bit for going after Armstrong, Lance deserved every bit of it. It's just that Walsh was never the hero he was built up to be, and no less self-serving that the current crop of self-serving journos. David Walsh as anti-doping crusader was always a myth. If there were a Cancer Jesus to crucify now, some reporter would jump at the chance to take that rider down.

Riders have learned from the Armstrong era. They've learned not to be total a-holes and they avoid the incentive which drives reporting quite nicely.

 

[Extinction]

And then where are the Eastern European journos in the fight against doping? Crickets.

 

[Extinction]

Welp. The point about the lack of media hitters is valid, but that's not what I was commenting on. In reality cycling journalism is the same now as it was during his era, a bunch of guys making their living off the sport. Lazy or rather self-interested reporting was always the norm. Walsh went after Armstrong, not doping. He avoided the larger issue consistently before/during/after his crusade against Armstrong. Just like with the self-serving journalists who didn't want to spit in the soup, Walsh's crusade was self-interested, really the only difference was that there was Cancer Jesus to bring down. Quite a scoop. Going after doping didn't pay, didn't get the clicks as we say now. Taking down an American hero paid. He was just a different kind of self-interested shill.

That said, I don't blame him a bit for going after Armstrong, Lance deserved every bit of it. It's just that Walsh was never the hero he was built up to be, and no less self-serving that the current crop of self-serving journos. David Walsh as anti-doping crusader was always a myth. If there were a Cancer Jesus to crucify now, some reporter would jump at the chance to take that rider down.

Riders have learned from the Armstrong era. They've learned not to be total a-holes and they avoid the incentive which drives reporting quite nicely.

It's a western theme to show we are holier than thou, fighting for rightiousness, the good cause, even in the face of self-flagellation, to cinically support business interests, the governing law, even while doing the opposite, which does not evidently concern those beyond western journalism in this sport.

 

[fbjim]

the actual lesson is also the Contador, Pantani, and Santiago Perez lesson: If you are going to be geared up, you should do fun things and not choke a race to death with Ritchie Porte or George Hincapie or something.

It also helps to have a team that is chronically unable to control a Grand Tour. I don't know what lesson that is. The Cadel Evans Method?

 

[ivanic]

Doping with mRNA technology.

Tadej's masterful performances on the bike are equaled by his post-race PR performances.
Step 1: Credit your teammates for all their hard work.
Step 2: Try to downplay your performance by saying you were really hurting in the final 2 km. It's like saying the riders couldn't hurt me, but the mountain certainly did.

Pogacar is the Gianetti's masterpiece creation.
Riccò was a bully, impulsive, aggressive ; Pogacar is the guy your mom would want as her daughter's boyfriend, angel face with his funny scenes copied from Peter Sagan.

I would pay a million to know what he and the fisherman are using, and maybe neither Eufe and Michele know what they are using.

 

[Elos Anjos]

What blows my mind is that ten years ago Quintana who was the stand out climber bar froome or contador is minutes behind in every mountain we see today. Just makes you shake your head that those great Quintana performances wouldn't finish top 20 today

The trend can be argued to be in line with progress across the years, as there has been better training, nutrition, equipment. Quintana was just a son of his own time. That's why it's near impossible to compare riders that overlap two or three years in different seasons. Again, you have to know how to read data, otherwise you just parrot numbers around.

 

[Mex_17]

Two things...

1) Why does the UCI want races turned into a complete farce by ignoring obvious doping? Pogacar deters me from watching. If it's a mountain stage and he's in it, I check the results ahead of time. 99 times out of 100 (unless Vingegaard is in it), Pogacar wins by destroying the peloton, and I don't bother to watch the race. How is that beneficial to cycling? If there is some doubt who might win, it's much more compelling.

2) Although Pogacar isn't an in-your-face a-hole like Armstrong was, I find him a carbon copy of Lance in that he has a massive ego, and has to destroy everyone every race, no matter what. He was already way ahead on time in Catalunya after his first stage win. He could have easily ridden in the wheels on the next stage, then attacked in the last 100m to win it easily. But he's not content with that, he has to attack again from way far out, to prove again that he's stronger than the entire peloton put together. You'd think he'd want to play it cool to discourage talk of him doping, but he behaves exactly the opposite. It's bizarre behavior.

 

[Scarponi]

well, the Froome of ten years ago would be 21st with Quintana. (dear me I remember when people were saying "cycling is in danger" when Sky won the TDF)

Imagine Froome spinning and attacking like on Ventoux just to come 21st…

 

[Cookster15]

Two things...

1) Why does the UCI want races turned into a complete farce by ignoring obvious doping? Pogacar deters me from watching. If it's a mountain stage and he's in it, I check the results ahead of time. 99 times out of 100 (unless Vingegaard is in it), Pogacar wins by destroying the peloton, and I don't bother to watch the race. How is that beneficial to cycling? If there is some doubt who might win, it's much more compelling.

2) Although Pogacar isn't an in-your-face a-hole like Armstrong was, I find him a carbon copy of Lance in that he has a massive ego, and has to destroy everyone every race, no matter what. He was already way ahead on time in Catalunya after his first stage win. He could have easily ridden in the wheels on the next stage, then attacked in the last 100m to win it easily. But he's not content with that, he has to attack again from way far out, to prove again that he's stronger than the entire peloton put together. You'd think he'd want to play it cool to discourage talk of him doping, but he behaves exactly the opposite. It's bizarre behavior.

Sure. But what about the rider who comfortably beat Pog at the last two TdFs and who has already demolished two stage races this season? Are you implying Vingegaard isn’t also doped to the gills?

I have difficulty accepting criticism of Pogacar’s performances without simultaneously acknowledging the other guy (and team). Who can forget that claimed “best time trial ever”? A 60Kg skeleton? Better than Indurain according to some reports (Danish?).

Most likely what you are seeing is an arms race.

 

[hfer07]

While I like Pogacar's approach to racing as far as being competitive in all terrains & races, emulating the ways of the GOATs i.e. Merckx, Hinault ,etc. I believe he's getting too "obvious" - the same as Vingegaard as the feud between the 2 grow, it makes racing absurd, TBH.
Thank God MVP remains a force to be reckoned with for the cobble & flat classics, otherwise Poga would win them all without a sweat....

 

[Ripper]

Sure. But what about the rider who comfortably beat Pog at the last two TdFs and who has already demolished two stage races this season? Are you implying Vingegaard isn’t also doped to the gills?

I have difficulty accepting criticism of Pogacar’s performances without simultaneously acknowledging the other guy (and team). Who can forget that claimed “best time trial ever”? A 60Kg skeleton? Better than Indurain according to some reports (Danish?).

Most likely what you are seeing is an arms race.

Ha, but this is Toddy's thread and he's the one kicking butt this week.

Jonah J is laughable in his own right, and perhaps we should have a thread entitled feuding aliens, where we can comment on both of them

 

[Krzysztof_O]

I agree that Teddy being mr nice guy is good tactics to be likeable in the peleton. However him wanting to win every stage isn't. Some guys and teams could get angry at some point. He should learn something from Indurain in this regard. Well, unless it's all just Z2 & pasta effect!

 

[Extinction]

I agree that Teddy being mr nice guy is good tactics to be likeable in the peleton. However him wanting to win every stage isn't. Some guys and teams could get angry at some point. He should learn something from Indurain in this regard. Well, unless it's all just Z2 & pasta effect!

Indurain won 5 Tours on epo, Teddy is something entirely different.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Indurain won 5 Tours on epo, Teddy is something entirely different.

Yeah, he's only won two Tours so far.

I have a problem with the clinic issues, of course, but I can't blame a guy for wanting to win races, although it's obviously easier when you already know you're the best.

 

[ppanther92]

The difference between Almeida PN and this is just as astounding

He sits on place 10 in the GC of that race. For the aspirations he seems to have, thats rather poor and in line with Paris Nice

 

[SHAD0W93]

He sits on place 10 in the GC of that race. For the aspirations he seems to have, thats rather poor and in line with Paris Nice

But he’s putting work in for Pogacar while he was riding his own race in Paris Nice.

 

[Froome]

So just like the Armstrong and Sky eras. But IMO so is the recent rise of Visma.

@red_flanders: The point about David Walsh stands. He might have lost credibility at the end but there are no inquisitive journalists these days. Else at least one journalist would be asking questions if what we are witnessing can be believed. But lazy journalism is the norm these days. If you can make a good living easy, why challenge the status quo with the stress that would bring. Just report the show and don't worry about how.

Sky era is not even close to this era. Sky era seems clean if we compare with this era. Super performances weren't that much during that era.