Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[fbjim]

remembering with fondness the roughly two or three month period where it seemed like Sunweb was the most doped team in the peloton

 

[Slavique Nuke]

I don't think that quite adds up. Landa rode for Sky but is going much faster now. Geraint Thomas is also better in his mid 30's than he was in his "prime". There must be something else going on.

Landa is a meme rider & I don't know what counts as prime for G, he won the Tour at 32, but in terms of physical prime he spent that time in the gruppetto.

but Dennis, Dumoulin, Valter, DVB and now Uijtdebroeks look no better or are worse now than they were on their old teams.

I disagree with this. You don't see it in the results because of all the supporting work, but Valter is much stronger now than he was in FDJ. He was among the best at the UAE Tour. This year's Strade was unfortunate for him, as he had not been feeling well in the days leading up to it. He would have been Visma's captain there.

As for van Baarle, he won his debut Jumbo race, then came the unfortunate Roubaix crash. Other than that you haven't really seen much else from him as a road captain working non-stop like a machine and keeping a strong breaks on a short leash almost single-handedly. It's strange that anyone questions his level, he's strong, he just has a different role than he had at INEOS. Let's see what kind of spring he has.

 

[Froome]

Add in some 20-30 KMs run in before the climb so Vinge and Pog could get some fatigue.

No no no no, we don't fatigue! It would be more interesting for the conversation in this forum, just the ITT of 13.9 km until alpe d huez.
This forum would go crazy.

It was a shame that Vingo and Pogacar almost stopped in the last 2 km of joux plane, pantani got away.

 

[pastronef]

I don't know what counts as prime for G, he won the Tour at 32, but in terms of physical prime he spent that time in the gruppetto.

he focused on the track until 2012 (he was 25)
in 2015 and 2016 (he was 29 and 30) was 15th at the TDF while being a domestique
he won Algarve, Paris-Nice when he was 29 and 30

 

[TrekCyclist]

No no no no, we don't fatigue! It would be more interesting for the conversation in this forum, just the ITT of 13.9 km until alpe d huez.
This forum would go crazy.

It was a shame that Vingo and Pogacar almost stopped in the last 2 km of joux plane, pantani got away.

True. There are certainly some extraordinary climb times during the past few years, not only Joux Plane.
However, I have the feeling that the race tactics / pacing on climbs was very different in the 90ties.
On 2024 Joux Plane, for example, JV and UAE were pacing almost perfectly from the bottom on (apart from the last 2 km). Compared to many races in the 90ties, where you often would see the strongest riders attacing during the first few km of a climb, and then slowing town towards the top, pacing today seems much more "optimized" for fast times.
Of course, there were exceptions, like Indurain 94 Hautacam, or Ullrich/Pantani 97 Alpe d Huez.

 

[Froome]

True. There are certainly some extraordinary climb times during the past few years, not only Joux Plane.
However, I have the feeling that the race tactics / pacing on climbs was very different in the 90ties.
On 2024 Joux Plane, for example, JV and UAE were pacing almost perfectly from the bottom on (apart from the last 2 km). Compared to many races in the 90ties, where you often would see the strongest riders attacing during the first few km of a climb, and then slowing town towards the top, pacing today seems much more "optimized" for fast times.
Of course, there were exceptions, like Indurain 94 Hautacam, or Ullrich/Pantani 97 Alpe d Huez.

I think we also have to consider that those guys in the 90s were full of sh** in they're blood.

I also think that the guys of this era are not 100% clean, but certainly they are not taking things in the same proportion that those guys from the 90s took.

 

[Sciatic]

I think we also have to consider that those guys in the 90s were full of sh** in they're blood.

I also think that the guys of this era are not 100% clean, but certainly they are not taking things in the same proportion that those guys from the 90s took.

I wish I could find the article again, but Vino’s testing once showed 2 OTHER people’s blood in his blood His explanation was he was involved in a huge crash and had some open wounds and other riders’ blood was “all over the road.” Hilarious!

 

[Froome]

I wish I could find the article again, but Vino’s testing once showed 2 OTHER people’s blood in his blood His explanation was he was involved in a huge crash and had some open wounds and other riders’ blood was “all over the road.” Hilarious!

I thought the story of Contador about the beef was the most hilarious story ever, but that story about Vino is even more fun!

 

[TrickyD]

I still think the most ridiculous case since 2020, is Mark Padun on the Dauphine 2021.

Padun and Bahrain in general around this time were like a latter day Saunier Duval until they got their rooms turned over at the Tour, then they seemed to wind it back in a bit. I’d also say Hirschi at the 2020 Tour was as clear as day.

 

[Froome]

Padun and Bahrain in general around this time were like a latter day Saunier Duval until they got their rooms turned over at the Tour, then they seemed to wind it back in a bit. I’d also say Hirschi at the 2020 Tour was as clear as day.

I thought Hirschi would even be more ridiculous at Emirates because those former guys from Saunier duval like "the saboteur" matxin and the "charlatan" san millan are there, but the "juice" there didn't worked for him.

 

[Sciatic]

I thought the story of Contador about the beef was the most hilarious story ever, but that story about Vino is even more fun!

That time of doing autologous (another person’s) blood doping was the real Wild West. No muss, no fuss with withdrawing and refrigerating one’s own blood. Just find someone with the same blood type and plug in. Remember Rasmussen admitted asking (or considered asking) his Dad to donate his blood.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

I thought Hirschi would even be more ridiculous at Emirates because those former guys from Saunier duval like "the saboteur" matxin and the "charlatan" san millan are there, but the "juice" there didn't worked for him.

José Ibarguren was assumed to be the mastermind behind the Saunier Duval yellow fever, but looking at Movistar's current results, he might also be a fraud these days.

 

[Froome]

That time of doing autologous (another person’s) blood doping was the real Wild West. No muss, no fuss with withdrawing and refrigerating one’s own blood. Just find someone with the same blood type and plug in. Remember Rasmussen admitted asking (or considered asking) his Dad to donate his blood.

That reminds me when armstrong and the rest of US postal, stopped the Bus "in the middle of the crowd" to do those things.

 

[Ripper]

I wish I could find the article again, but Vino’s testing once showed 2 OTHER people’s blood in his blood His explanation was he was involved in a huge crash and had some open wounds and other riders’ blood was “all over the road.” Hilarious!

Oh, I remember that very well!

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Teddy and Skeletor don't use these primitive methods. As performance optimized artificial humans they don't even dope!

 

[ivanic]

I think 2019 was also similar, so between 2013 and 2019.
Then, something happened in 2020, when covid appeared. They are getting faster, year after year.

I think it gets attributed to lockdown but the autumn of 2019 and Roglic's Vuelta win was when I first felt something had changed,

Un podium surprenant pour la Vuelta 2019, par Frédéric Portoleau

Primoz Roglic poursuit sa moisson de victoires dans les courses par étapes au plus haut niveau (« world tour »). Sur ses deux dernières saisons 2018 et 2019, il a remporté le Tour du Pays Basque, 2 fois le Tour de Romandie, l'UAE Tour, Tirreno Adriatico et la semaine dernière le Tour d'Espagne...

www.chronoswatts.com

The nature of change feels different too, with Sky and US Postal their programs seemed to lift most riders levels uniformly, with the odd super-responder like Froome, but look at Jumbo-Visma for example, there is such a huge disparity in response. Laporte, Vingegaard, WVA and soon Jorgenson have looked at times like they are riding against children, but Dennis, Dumoulin, Valter, DVB and now Uijtdebroeks look no better or are worse now than they were on their old teams.

UAE don't actually seem to be anything special without Pogacar. Matxin gets credit as some sort of scouting guru but half the users on here could've told you that Ayuso, Del Toro and Morgado would be good before they went there, they just seem to have more money to offer youth prospects and invest in tt-equipment. Flattening Italian Pro-Conti teams might fool the sheik but only really Pogacar sticks out. I'm going with a less-organised more slapdash version of what Jumbo are doing, I'd say definitely blood bags though, look at Pogacar's resurrection on Cauterets, Mcnulty and Bjerg on Col d'Azet was the most obvious case of refuelling I've ever seen in my life.

Whatever they're doing, I would say at least Geriant Thomas and Tao Geoghegan-Hart seem to have figured it out and responded in-kind.

Bahrain in 2021 and even last year on Angliru was also notable, I'll always go back to the Dauphine, I'd love to know what Padun was doing, absolute rocket fuel.

I suspect something a bit different is going on, but it could just be a case of increasing the risk constantly in dialectic with other teams and riders performances.

Can't be only blood bags.

 

[Froome]

Can't be only blood bags.

Like @Krzysztof_O said, i don't think they use those primitive methods now, but certainly something new that we don't know.

 

[Tim Cahill]

Can't be only blood bags.

Probably not no, but nobody told poor old Nairo is still flying the flag at the very least.

 

[Red Rick]

I think it gets attributed to lockdown but the autumn of 2019 and Roglic's Vuelta win was when I first felt something had changed,

Un podium surprenant pour la Vuelta 2019, par Frédéric Portoleau

Primoz Roglic poursuit sa moisson de victoires dans les courses par étapes au plus haut niveau (« world tour »). Sur ses deux dernières saisons 2018 et 2019, il a remporté le Tour du Pays Basque, 2 fois le Tour de Romandie, l'UAE Tour, Tirreno Adriatico et la semaine dernière le Tour d'Espagne...

www.chronoswatts.com

The nature of change feels different too, with Sky and US Postal their programs seemed to lift most riders levels uniformly, with the odd super-responder like Froome, but look at Jumbo-Visma for example, there is such a huge disparity in response. Laporte, Vingegaard, WVA and soon Jorgenson have looked at times like they are riding against children, but Dennis, Dumoulin, Valter, DVB and now Uijtdebroeks look no better or are worse now than they were on their old teams.

UAE don't actually seem to be anything special without Pogacar. Matxin gets credit as some sort of scouting guru but half the users on here could've told you that Ayuso, Del Toro and Morgado would be good before they went there, they just seem to have more money to offer youth prospects and invest in tt-equipment. Flattening Italian Pro-Conti teams might fool the sheik but only really Pogacar sticks out. I'm going with a less-organised more slapdash version of what Jumbo are doing, I'd say definitely blood bags though, look at Pogacar's resurrection on Cauterets, Mcnulty and Bjerg on Col d'Azet was the most obvious case of refuelling I've ever seen in my life.

Whatever they're doing, I would say at least Geriant Thomas and Tao Geoghegan-Hart seem to have figured it out and responded in-kind.

Bahrain in 2021 and even last year on Angliru was also notable, I'll always go back to the Dauphine, I'd love to know what Padun was doing, absolute rocket fuel.

I suspect something a bit different is going on, but it could just be a case of increasing the risk constantly in dialectic with other teams and riders performances.

I think it's crazy to say that UAE is average without Pogacar. They win so much, they win everywhere. Yates made a pretty big jump going from Ineos to UAE. Del Toro, Morgado and Ayuso all made an immediate splash in their debut seasons at WT, that's not that common.

For Jumbo, you also have to look at what team they take a rider from, and if said rider has a specific issue. Dumoulin had physical issues they couldn't fix. Dennis came from Ineos. Kelderman and Uijtdebroecks are from Bora, who are low key a pretty good team in their own right. The big Visma transfomations were all from riders they picked up from conti/pro conti teams and developed over multiple years.

 

[Tim Cahill]

I think it's crazy to say that UAE is average without Pogacar. They win so much, they win everywhere. Yates made a pretty big jump going from Ineos to UAE. Del Toro, Morgado and Ayuso all made an immediate splash in their debut seasons at WT, that's not that common.

For Jumbo, you also have to look at what team they take a rider from, and if said rider has a specific issue. Dumoulin had physical issues they couldn't fix. Dennis came from Ineos. Kelderman and Uijtdebroecks are from Bora, who are low key a pretty good team in their own right. The big Visma transfomations were all from riders they picked up from conti/pro conti teams and developed over multiple years.

I would caveat that by saying average relative to their budget, which far surpasses most teams. I think Yates' is only really a touch better than he was at Ineos, his 2021 season was rather underrated, winning Catalunya, 2nd at UAE, podiumed Lombardia, 4th at La Vuelta though should've done better admittedly. He's more consistent now definitely and his Tour podium was very strong, but it's often forgotten that he was 4th in the TdF at 23 at Orica, and is now entering what traditionally would be his prime years. The point with the younger riders was more that they had the recourses available to take the kind of financial risks, rather them being there as a product of scouting which Matxin gets a lot of credit for, Ayuso for example was one of the best juniors of all time, Morgado also, exceptional, Mcnulty, Bjerg, Christen, they aren't exactly signing unpolished diamonds. These riders will be on the other teams radars but they can't be offering mid-6 figures for potential alone. Hirschi, Ackermann, Almeida are interesting cases too, no better or in some respects worse than they were on their old teams. They just seem like Lampre with unlimited money and Pogacar to me.

Jumbo are a difficult team to pin down really, certainly those riders were on good teams beforehand, but there is currently a widening chasm between them and the others that I think should be reflected in the performances of rider transfers but isn't. Roglic we will have to wait and see as there isn't much to go off yet but he's the one to watch I think, interested in what Ben Tullett can do there too as Ineos seem like a bit of a mess at the moment.

 

[Red Rick]

I would caveat that by saying average relative to their budget, which far surpasses most teams. I think Yates' is only really a touch better than he was at Ineos, his 2021 season was rather underrated, winning Catalunya, 2nd at UAE, podiumed Lombardia, 4th at La Vuelta though should've done better admittedly. He's more consistent now definitely and his Tour podium was very strong, but it's often forgotten that he was 4th in the TdF at 23 at Orica, and is now entering what traditionally would be his prime years. The point with the younger riders was more that they had the recourses available to take the kind of financial risks, rather them being there as a product of scouting which Matxin gets a lot of credit for, Ayuso for example was one of the best juniors of all time, Morgado also, exceptional, Mcnulty, Bjerg, Christen, they aren't exactly signing unpolished diamonds. These riders will be on the other teams radars but they can't be offering mid-6 figures for potential alone. Hirschi, Ackermann, Almeida are interesting cases too, no better or in some respects worse than they were on their old teams. They just seem like Lampre with unlimited money and Pogacar to me.

Jumbo are a difficult team to pin down really, certainly those riders were on good teams beforehand, but there is currently a widening chasm between them and the others that I think should be reflected in the performances of rider transfers but isn't. Roglic we will have to wait and see as there isn't much to go off yet but he's the one to watch I think, interested in what Ben Tullett can do there too as Ineos seem like a bit of a mess at the moment.

With Jumbo specifically I think they hit the jackpot on a few riders in a row they took a shot at that turned into world beaters, but their program isn't gonna turn your well trained WT rider into 2 levels higher.

Basically I'm not sure I believe the difference between Hindley and Vingegaard is entirely that one is on Bora and the other is on Jumbo

 

[zlev11]

José Ibarguren was assumed to be the mastermind behind the Saunier Duval yellow fever, but looking at Movistar's current results, he might also be a fraud these days.

i wonder if he's wanted to tone it down himself in recent years. he left Quick Step and Alaphilippe and their classics team immediately dropped a full level.

 

[Slavique Nuke]

UAE signed Fisher-Black from Jumbo which turned out to be a massive flop. He was touted as the future star, along with Ayuso. Although he has been hampered by injury, his results before the injury were not impressive.

 

[Brullnux]

I think it's crazy to say that UAE is average without Pogacar. They win so much, they win everywhere. Yates made a pretty big jump going from Ineos to UAE. Del Toro, Morgado and Ayuso all made an immediate splash in their debut seasons at WT, that's not that common.

Del Toro and Ayuso were incredibly good junior riders, in fairness. I think they would've had good debut seasons at most good teams. Though I get succeasful debut seasons are fairly rare, those two were definitely marked out as rare talents.

 

[Blobs]

Landa is a meme rider & I don't know what counts as prime for G, he won the Tour at 32, but in terms of physical prime he spent that time in the gruppetto.

I don't know what a meme rider is, and don't see how that's an argument at all. Thomas hit his best level (we thought) in 2018 and then declined after, but then returned to an even stronger level than before, at 36.

Do you think Sky could have made these riders much better, but chose not to because they considered them meme riders?

I doubt it. There must be some other explanation.