Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[SHAD0W93]

He sits on place 10 in the GC of that race. For the aspirations he seems to have, thats rather poor and in line with Paris Nice

But he’s putting work in for Pogacar while he was riding his own race in Paris Nice.

 

[Froome]

So just like the Armstrong and Sky eras. But IMO so is the recent rise of Visma.

@red_flanders: The point about David Walsh stands. He might have lost credibility at the end but there are no inquisitive journalists these days. Else at least one journalist would be asking questions if what we are witnessing can be believed. But lazy journalism is the norm these days. If you can make a good living easy, why challenge the status quo with the stress that would bring. Just report the show and don't worry about how.

Sky era is not even close to this era. Sky era seems clean if we compare with this era. Super performances weren't that much during that era.

 

[Slavique Nuke]

A track specialist, a guy who has to be towed by a car on cat 2 climbs and a classic specialist all win the Tour de France, while the UCI president is someone who is extremely close to the team. That era seems very legit.

 

[Blobs]

A track specialist, a guy who has to be towed by a car on cat 2 climbs and a classic specialist all win the Tour de France, while the UCI president is someone who is extremely close to the team. That era seems very legit.

Compared to now. Those guys would finish minutes after the best riders of today.

 

[Slavique Nuke]

My theory about the Sky era:
- In their golden age, they dominated cycling financially.
- The UCI presidents and their families were close to the team.
- Power and money gave them advantages that other teams did not enjoy.
- The UCI kept a tight rein on the other teams. Those who crossed the line were caught, while Sky was allowed to break the rules.
- It allowed them to win with less talented riders, so no crazy times from that era.

Their downfalls:
- Large amounts of money from other sources began to flow into the cycling world.
- The British have lost control of the UCI presidency.
- With big money behind some teams, they also started to get privileges.
- Unlike Sky, these teams are not driven by nationalism. They started to recruit more talented and better responders, regardless of nationality.

Doping methods probably haven't changed much since the days of Sky, the main difference being that more natural talent and better responders are winning.

 

[Netserk]

The trend can be argued to be in line with progress across the years, as there has been better training, nutrition, equipment. Quintana was just a son of his own time. That's why it's near impossible to compare riders that overlap two or three years in different seasons. Again, you have to know how to read data, otherwise you just parrot numbers around.

The best performances over the years were very similar from 2013 to 2018, arguably you could stretch that back to the introduction of the passport in 2008. Before the New Acceleration we had the Great Stagnation.

Pogi and Vingegaard are now at least as good climbers as anyone else from 2000 to Operación Puerto.

 

[Froome]

The best performances over the years were very similar from 2013 to 2018, arguably you could stretch that back to the introduction of the passport in 2008. Before the New Acceleration we had the Great Stagnation.

I think 2019 was also similar, so between 2013 and 2019.
Then, something happened in 2020, when covid appeared. They are getting faster, year after year.

 

[Blobs]

Doping methods probably haven't changed much since the days of Sky, the main difference being that more natural talent and better responders are winning.

I don't think that quite adds up. Landa rode for Sky but is going much faster now. Geraint Thomas is also better in his mid 30's than he was in his "prime". There must be something else going on.

 

[Froome]

I don't think that quite adds up. Landa rode for Sky but is going much faster now. Geraint Thomas is also better in his mid 30's than he was in his "prime". There must be something else going on.

Better nutrition, better equipment, better training methods, better scouting, and probably some new "juice", but the question is, is the "juice" real doping? It can be legal doping or something not banned.
The ketones are a legal "juice" for example.

 

[Tim Cahill]

I think it gets attributed to lockdown but the autumn of 2019 and Roglic's Vuelta win was when I first felt something had changed,

Un podium surprenant pour la Vuelta 2019, par Frédéric Portoleau

Primoz Roglic poursuit sa moisson de victoires dans les courses par étapes au plus haut niveau (« world tour »). Sur ses deux dernières saisons 2018 et 2019, il a remporté le Tour du Pays Basque, 2 fois le Tour de Romandie, l'UAE Tour, Tirreno Adriatico et la semaine dernière le Tour d'Espagne...

www.chronoswatts.com

The nature of change feels different too, with Sky and US Postal their programs seemed to lift most riders levels uniformly, with the odd super-responder like Froome, but look at Jumbo-Visma for example, there is such a huge disparity in response. Laporte, Vingegaard, WVA and soon Jorgenson have looked at times like they are riding against children, but Dennis, Dumoulin, Valter, DVB and now Uijtdebroeks look no better or are worse now than they were on their old teams.

UAE don't actually seem to be anything special without Pogacar. Matxin gets credit as some sort of scouting guru but half the users on here could've told you that Ayuso, Del Toro and Morgado would be good before they went there, they just seem to have more money to offer youth prospects and invest in tt-equipment. Flattening Italian Pro-Conti teams might fool the sheik but only really Pogacar sticks out. I'm going with a less-organised more slapdash version of what Jumbo are doing, I'd say definitely blood bags though, look at Pogacar's resurrection on Cauterets, Mcnulty and Bjerg on Col d'Azet was the most obvious case of refuelling I've ever seen in my life.

Whatever they're doing, I would say at least Geriant Thomas and Tao Geoghegan-Hart seem to have figured it out and responded in-kind.

Bahrain in 2021 and even last year on Angliru was also notable, I'll always go back to the Dauphine, I'd love to know what Padun was doing, absolute rocket fuel.

I suspect something a bit different is going on, but it could just be a case of increasing the risk constantly in dialectic with other teams and riders performances.

 

[Froome]

I think it gets attributed to lockdown but the autumn of 2019 and Roglic's Vuelta win was when I first felt something had changed,

Un podium surprenant pour la Vuelta 2019, par Frédéric Portoleau

Primoz Roglic poursuit sa moisson de victoires dans les courses par étapes au plus haut niveau (« world tour »). Sur ses deux dernières saisons 2018 et 2019, il a remporté le Tour du Pays Basque, 2 fois le Tour de Romandie, l'UAE Tour, Tirreno Adriatico et la semaine dernière le Tour d'Espagne...

www.chronoswatts.com

The nature of change feels different too, with Sky and US Postal their programs seemed to lift most riders levels uniformly, with the odd super-responder like Froome, but look at Jumbo-Visma for example, there is such a huge disparity in response. Laporte, Vingegaard, WVA and soon Jorgenson have looked at times like they are riding against children, but Dennis, Dumoulin, Valter, DVB and now Uijtdebroeks look no better or are worse now than they were on their old teams.

UAE don't actually seem to be anything special without Pogacar. Matxin gets credit as some sort of scouting guru but half the users on here could've told you that Ayuso, Del Toro and Morgado would be good before they went there, they just seem to have more money to offer youth prospects and invest in tt-equipment. Flattening Italian Pro-Conti teams might fool the sheik but only really Pogacar sticks out. I'm going with a less-organised more slapdash version of what Jumbo are doing, I'd say definitely blood bags though, look at Pogacar's resurrection Cauterets, Mcnulty and Bjerg on Col d'Azet was the most obvious case of refuelling I've ever seen in my life.

Whatever they're doing, I would say at least Geriant Thomas and Tao Geoghegan-Hart seem to have figured it out and responded in-kind.

Bahrain in 2021 and even last year on Angliru was also notable, I'll always go back to the Dauphine, I'd love to know what Padun was doing, absolute rocket fuel.

I suspect something a bit different is going on, but it could just be a case of increasing the risk constantly in dialectic with other teams and riders performances.

I would love to see a ITT to alpe d'huez in the Tour again.

 

[SHAD0W93]

I would love to see a ITT to alpe d'huez in the Tour again.

Add in some 20-30 KMs run in before the climb so Vinge and Pog could get some fatigue.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

I think 2019 was also similar, so between 2013 and 2019.
Then, something happened in 2020, when covid appeared. They are getting faster, year after year.

Covid caused some mutations and accelerated human evolution.

 

[Ripper]

I think it gets attributed to lockdown but the autumn of 2019 and Roglic's Vuelta win was when I first felt something had changed,

Un podium surprenant pour la Vuelta 2019, par Frédéric Portoleau

Primoz Roglic poursuit sa moisson de victoires dans les courses par étapes au plus haut niveau (« world tour »). Sur ses deux dernières saisons 2018 et 2019, il a remporté le Tour du Pays Basque, 2 fois le Tour de Romandie, l'UAE Tour, Tirreno Adriatico et la semaine dernière le Tour d'Espagne...

www.chronoswatts.com

The nature of change feels different too, with Sky and US Postal their programs seemed to lift most riders levels uniformly, with the odd super-responder like Froome, but look at Jumbo-Visma for example, there is such a huge disparity in response. Laporte, Vingegaard, WVA and soon Jorgenson have looked at times like they are riding against children, but Dennis, Dumoulin, Valter, DVB and now Uijtdebroeks look no better or are worse now than they were on their old teams.

UAE don't actually seem to be anything special without Pogacar. Matxin gets credit as some sort of scouting guru but half the users on here could've told you that Ayuso, Del Toro and Morgado would be good before they went there, they just seem to have more money to offer youth prospects and invest in tt-equipment. Flattening Italian Pro-Conti teams might fool the sheik but only really Pogacar sticks out. I'm going with a less-organised more slapdash version of what Jumbo are doing, I'd say definitely blood bags though, look at Pogacar's resurrection on Cauterets, Mcnulty and Bjerg on Col d'Azet was the most obvious case of refuelling I've ever seen in my life.

Whatever they're doing, I would say at least Geriant Thomas and Tao Geoghegan-Hart seem to have figured it out and responded in-kind.

Bahrain in 2021 and even last year on Angliru was also notable, I'll always go back to the Dauphine, I'd love to know what Padun was doing, absolute rocket fuel.

I suspect something a bit different is going on, but it could just be a case of increasing the risk constantly in dialectic with other teams and riders performances.

Great post (and extra points for the use of slapdash).

The pandemic season, with the pause and then races moved around, certainly placed an exclamation mark on the new normal. That was also of course the breakthrough year for Teddy Poo with one of what what would become annual WTF performances from he or Viggo (TP's 2020 TT, etc).

The ridiculous performances I used to call out now look pedestrian in comparison.

 

[fbjim]

iirc the actual breakthrough for Pogacar was 2019 at the Vuelta, where he won three mountain stages.

this included a stage 20 where he attacked and was suddenly a minute up the road, though this one might also have been a tactical thing than a pure "gassed up turbo attack" because Movistar was involved. been a while since i watched but i remember movistar sitting on and trying to get a just-in-the-red Lopez to respond until the gap blew up and it was clear Pogacar was actually a threat to Valverde in second.


e) i remember that Vuelta being the big breakthrough for Sepp Kuss too.

 

[fbjim]

also i think the 2020 Tour, apart from PDBF, felt a lot like the "old normal". remember that the race was pretty poor because Jumbo were doing their Sky impression and controlling the race with tempo climbs, which felt like why they thought a minute lead into the final TT was fine. that kind of gap happened a few times in the Sky era (2015, Froome won by 1:15, 2017, Froome won by 50 seconds, 2018, Thomas won by 1:50) but the race never felt seriously in doubt beyond cope, because of how well they controlled the race.

2021 is also when I recall the "wow all these stages are being raced super hard" talk from the peloton start up.

 

[Froome]

also i think the 2020 Tour, apart from PDBF, felt a lot like the "old normal". remember that the race was pretty poor because Jumbo were doing their Sky impression and controlling the race with tempo climbs, which felt like why they thought a minute lead into the final TT was fine. that kind of gap happened a few times in the Sky era (2015, Froome won by 1:15, 2017, Froome won by 50 seconds, 2018, Thomas won by 1:50) but the race never felt seriously in doubt beyond cope, because of how well they controlled the race.

2021 is also when I recall the "wow all these stages are being raced super hard" talk from the peloton start up.

Remember Pogacar peyresourde.

 

[fbjim]

oh there was definitely eye-opening stuff in 2020, like Peyresourde, PDBF, and the bizarre crap that happened in the 2020 Giro generally. I do think 2021 is kind of when it "settled" into the current "everyone is on gas and there are no rest days" mode though.

 

[Froome]

oh there was definitely eye-opening stuff in 2020, like Peyresourde, PDBF, and the bizarre crap that happened in the 2020 Giro generally. I do think 2021 is kind of when it "settled" into the current "everyone is on gas and there are no rest days" mode though.

Yes, the perfomances from hindley and Hart were no joke.

 

[fbjim]

yeah Sunweb deciding to re-enact LPSM 2015 out of nowhere. Rohan Dennis, Ace Climber, and TGH who I remember as "wait this guy was getting dropped by Hermann Pernsteiner at last year's Vuelta". utterly perplexing race in general.

 

[Sciatic]

Great post (and extra points for the use of slapdash).

The pandemic season, with the pause and then races moved around, certainly placed an exclamation mark on the new normal. That was also of course the breakthrough year for Teddy Poo with one of what what would become annual WTF performances from he or Viggo (TP's 2020 TT, etc).

The ridiculous performances I used to call out now look pedestrian in comparison.

Sorry if this was mentioned upthread already, but the pandemic shutdown period was also a time when no (or very reduced) OOC testing was happening. I have no idea if doping during that time would have carry Over to when racing resumed (perhaps with testo use there could be), but it also offered a time for experimentation with new products, dosing schedules, and detection windows.

 

[Cookster15]

I agree that Teddy being mr nice guy is good tactics to be likeable in the peleton. However him wanting to win every stage isn't. Some guys and teams could get angry at some point. He should learn something from Indurain in this regard. Well, unless it's all just Z2 & pasta effect!

I'm open to alternative views but I’ve never got the impression Pog isn’t popular with the peloton? I also don’t think there is anything wrong with him wanting to win when he can. Pog doesn't have the personality of "No gifts" Armstrong. Did any riders or teams get angry with Merckx dominance?

 

[Froome]

yeah Sunweb deciding to re-enact LPSM 2015 out of nowhere. Rohan Dennis, Ace Climber, and TGH who I remember as "wait this guy was getting dropped by Hermann Pernsteiner at last year's Vuelta". utterly perplexing race in general.

I still think the most ridiculous case since 2020, is Mark Padun on the Dauphine 2021.

 

[fbjim]

I mean, Lance was "popular" in the peloton, bullies with power tend to be popular.

Not saying that is what Pogacar is doing but the people I remember being disliked in the peloton were either for Omerta reasons, being bad teammates, or for stuff like "acts like a total jerk in breakaway groups".

 

[Cookster15]

Sorry if this was mentioned upthread already, but the pandemic shutdown period was also a time when no (or very reduced) OOC testing was happening. I have no idea if doping during that time would have carry Over to when racing resumed (perhaps with testo use there could be), but it also offered a time for experimentation with new products, dosing schedules, and detection windows.

Yes, that is what I recall and there was an article in Cycling News about the lack of OOC testing due to Covid. In the 2020 Giro, who can forget that pull by Rohan Dennis on the Stelvio which was what ended up winning that race for TGH.

Maybe methods discovered during the Covid period have carried over as times have not slowed?

Also, on Geraint Thomas, when he finished with Pog and Vingo on the Alpe in 2022, that was a way faster ascent than 2018 when he won that stage.

On Pogacar and Vingegaard perhaps it is a case of discovering who is the best responder in the team and juicing them to the limits without triggering red lights?