Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Tricycle Rider]

That's a great point. The modern era of professional bodybuilding is called the "mass monsters" (i.e. freak show. Lol). They take huge amounts of anabolic steroids, testosterone, growth hormones, IGF-1, anti-aromatization drugs, etc, spending thousands of dollars a month on their PED habit.

Contrast that with the Golden era bodybuilders in the 70's (e.g., Arnold, Lou Ferrigno, Frank Zane, Ken Waller, etc) who took relatively small amounts of a few steroids - they were actually in very good health (most of the Golden era guys are still alive today!).

I've seen Pumping Iron a few times and I think Arnold and that whole generation of bodybuilders looked so much better and more natural (despite the steroids and whatever else), their bodies and muscles looked well-defined and well-proportioned. (Especially Arnold.) The muscle monsters of today look like bloated freaks who look more like cartoons... of course, the bodybuilding community has standards of its own, to them the obvious steroid freak (like Ronnie Coleman or Jay Cutler) looks beautiful, I guess.

 

[ppanther92]

Oh, now I think I finally understand why people are talking about "responding to" this and that doping. It's like with medication in general.

But then the "good responders" logically would also mean there will possibly be more side effects/risks. And the not so good responders with less side effects might in reality be better responders, since less side effects etc.

So how would it in reality be possible to make an amazing athlete simply out of how they respond to a drug? Especially not without risking their lives? It doesn't make sense to me at all.

I mean, the most obvious example in blood doping/EPO golden age was always that there were guys with comparably low hematocrit naturally that would then gain more improvement than guys that were comparatively high already. And I guess a little bit you can use that argument for all performance-relevant parameters like testosterone, growth hormone, and so on and so forth.

And yeah, obviously drugs are also metabolized differently. So overall, I just think its very complex to even determine a good and bad responder upfront.

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

Absurd

 

[the delgados]

You've got to hand it to the new doped generation: That was fun to watch. My eyes never left Pogocar from 3 km to go. I don't even know who won the stage, because I was still staring at him in stunned disbelief when the winning riders crossed the line. I was cheering for him to win the friggin' stage!
Talk about hubris! Amazing stuff.
At least there's a tomorrow for Pogocar. And the next day, and the next day, and so on and so forth and more of the same.

 

[SorelyBoy]

I mean, at least Armstrong had the grace and intelligence to pick his stages and share out the baubles with the lesser mortals. Pogacar wants to win everything and grind everyone into dust. Neither does there appear to be any attempt to conserve energy, probably in the knowledge that he doesn’t need to, that there will be no real impact on his energy and performance levels. Or if there is, then no one is going to be able to capitalise because the gap to the rest is so great in any case. That arrogance/exuberance (take your pick) can be his Kryptonite, especially when up against someone who can pick him off over a few days at high altitude (Jonas) but unfortunately this race is already over bar an accident. Overall I just don’t believe what I’m seeing, but it sure the hell isn’t sport, and I’m also sick of listening to the Eurosport ‘isn’t he amazing’ crap. No he’s not amazing, he’s a very naughty boy.

 

[Slavique Nuke]

If he'd gone for the stage, his team would have drilled all the way up the climb instead of leaving him alone behind the INEOS guys. He just wanted to put on a little show, like MvdP did two years ago, and give something back to the organisers, who must have paid him a lot of money to enter the race.

 

[Extinction]

I mean, the most obvious example in blood doping/EPO golden age was always that there were guys with comparably low hematocrit naturally that would then gain more improvement than guys that were comparatively high already. And I guess a little bit you can use that argument for all performance-relevant parameters like testosterone, growth hormone, and so on and so forth.

And yeah, obviously drugs are also metabolized differently. So overall, I just think its very complex to even determine a good and bad responder upfront.

Well, Armstrong was clearly a good responder.

 

[Extinction]

I mean, at least Armstrong had the grace and intelligence to pick his stages and share out the baubles with the lesser mortals. Pogacar wants to win everything and grind everyone into dust. Neither does there appear to be any attempt to conserve energy, probably in the knowledge that he doesn’t need to, that there will be no real impact on his energy and performance levels. Or if there is, then no one is going to be able to capitalise because the gap to the rest is so great in any case. That arrogance/exuberance (take your pick) can be his Kryptonite, especially when up against someone who can pick him off over a few days at high altitude (Jonas) but unfortunately this race is already over bar an accident. Overall I just don’t believe what I’m seeing, but it sure the hell isn’t sport, and I’m also sick of listening to the Eurosport ‘isn’t he amazing’ crap. No he’s not amazing, he’s a very naughty boy.

On the RAI coverage the way of putting it is: "He does another sport" ("Fa un altro sport"), meaning he's in a class of his own.

 

[SorelyBoy]

On the RAI coverage the way of putting it is: "He does another sport" ("Fa un altro sport"), meaning he's in a class of his own.

That’s one way of putting it, and technically correct. But, either way, we are so very back into an era where everyone is being instructed not to ‘piss in the soup’.

 

[MartinGT]

LOL

Has someone turned back time to the 90s?

 

[BullsFan22]

I mean, at least Armstrong had the grace and intelligence to pick his stages and share out the baubles with the lesser mortals. Pogacar wants to win everything and grind everyone into dust. Neither does there appear to be any attempt to conserve energy, probably in the knowledge that he doesn’t need to, that there will be no real impact on his energy and performance levels. Or if there is, then no one is going to be able to capitalise because the gap to the rest is so great in any case. That arrogance/exuberance (take your pick) can be his Kryptonite, especially when up against someone who can pick him off over a few days at high altitude (Jonas) but unfortunately this race is already over bar an accident. Overall I just don’t believe what I’m seeing, but it sure the hell isn’t sport, and I’m also sick of listening to the Eurosport ‘isn’t he amazing’ crap. No he’s not amazing, he’s a very naughty boy.

Then don’t watch. Nobody’s forcing you to follow races he is in.

 

[Cookster15]

LOL

Has someone turned back time to the 90s?

Which GC rider did this in the 90s?

 

[Red Rick]

Oooh, the real Teddy? 'roid rage?!
https://cyclinguptodate.com/cycling...uments-that-giro-is-won-before-it-even-starts

Proceeds to race literally as if it's all about him.

 

[SorelyBoy]

Then don’t watch. Nobody’s forcing you to follow races he is in.

Without actually realising it, you’ve just identified the problem with doping. Apart from robbing clean riders of their just rewards, their glory, riders and teams who dope represent an existential threat to the sport. They’re enemies of the sport because if people can’t believe what they’re seeing people *will* stop watching it. I’ve seen plenty of comments on these pages to that effect. If they stop watching then sponsors will withdraw, TV will do the same, and that’s the end. We’ve seen this happening to athletics, and it almost happened to cycling post Armstrong. And yet all the same people from that era, bar a few sacrificial offerings are still hanging around doing pulling the same crap they’ve always pulled. Human beings. They don’t effing learn.

 

[SorelyBoy]

Which GC rider did this in the 90s?

Quite a few of them. You should look it up.

 

[Cookster15]

Quite a few of them. You should look it up.

It should not be difficult to quote one then. I watched racing in the 90s.

 

[BullsFan22]

Without actually realising it, you’ve just identified the problem with doping. Apart from robbing clean riders of their just rewards, their glory, riders and teams who dope represent an existential threat to the sport. They’re enemies of the sport because if people can’t believe what they’re seeing people *will* stop watching it. I’ve seen plenty of comments on these pages to that effect. If they stop watching then sponsors will withdraw, TV will do the same, and that’s the end. We’ve seen this happening to athletics, and it almost happened to cycling post Armstrong. And yet all the same people from that era, bar a few sacrificial offerings are still hanging around doing pulling the same crap they’ve always pulled. Human beings. They don’t effing learn.

Who exactly are these ‘clean riders?’ Name one.

 

[SorelyBoy]

It should not be difficult to quote one then. I watched racing in the 90s

I’d start with the Festina Affair and take it from there.

 

[SorelyBoy]

Who exactly are these ‘clean riders?’ Name one.

Why?

 

[GuntherL1]

Who exactly are these ‘clean riders?’ Name one.

Evenepoel. Pidcock. Possibly Roglic.

 

[BullsFan22]

Evenepoel. Pidcock. Possibly Roglic.

What constitutes a ‘clean’ rider?

 

[nayr497]

I think the majority of pro peloton guys are probably using something to the best of their own/team's wallet capabilities.

But having 3-4 guys race 10 months a year and win by wide margins and contest every stage of a GT really makes me lose interest in following at all. This type of winning and winning across all parcours by a few guys wasn't the norm in the Lance era or the Sky era. It makes me much less interested in tuning in.

 

[Nick2413]

I've seen Pumping Iron a few times and I think Arnold and that whole generation of bodybuilders looked so much better and more natural (despite the steroids and whatever else), their bodies and muscles looked well-defined and well-proportioned. (Especially Arnold.) The muscle monsters of today look like bloated freaks who look more like cartoons... of course, the bodybuilding community has standards of its own, to them the obvious steroid freak (like Ronnie Coleman or Jay Cutler) looks beautiful, I guess.

I don’t follow closely but I think they’re getting a bit away from the HGH gut these days. Peak size was Ronnie Coleman around 15 years ago then peak gut with the Phil Heath era 5-10 years ago and now it seems attention is less focused on the bloated gut look. The “physique” competitors look the most like the old school days and are gaining popularity I think. The synthol and mass at all costs got disgusting.

 

[Rob5091]

Just for curiousity's sake has anyone compared Teddy's numbers to peak Lance? I know it'll be a bit like apples and oranges but just to see how much aero gels and altitude nutrition have made clean riders so much better.

 

[noob]

I didn't watch it. I still haven't. I literally only saw the first update in this thread after the race and knew what had happened instantly.

I guess for someone who registered on this forum for the clinic I should be happy. But this doesn't even fascinate me. It's just too hilarious. Clearly the guy has but 1 goal; to beat Merx. And seems Merx himself hopes it happens too. I guess this is the only competition there is.