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Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

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and you don't increase your genetically determined vo2 max ceiling by exercising like Greg Lemondt
However, nobody increases tallness through training, but cyclists can reach their highest potential vo2 max by exercising. One's height is thus simply a fact, a piece of unalterable data; whereas vo2 max isn't a constant and relies upon genetic predisposition and the will to train to reach highest potential level. In cases like Lemond for cycling, having such good genetics for an incredibly high vo2 max with rigorous training is usually called talent.
 
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However, nobody increases tallness through training, but cyclists can reach their highest potential vo2 max by exercising. One's height is thus simply a fact, a piece of unalterable data; whereas vo2 max isn't a constant and relies upon genetic predisposition and the will to train to reach highest potential level. In cases like Lemond for cycling, having such good genetics for an incredibly high vo2 max with rigorous training is usually called talent.
yea, whatever, the point is that people only pay attention to things they can see with their eyes. They can see height, so it's a tangible, unalterable thing that exists. They can see someone riding 6 hours a day, so that's a thing that exists. They can't see a genetic predisposition for aerobic capacity, so it must be some je ne sais quoi we call "talent". But that "talent" is just as much something you're born with as height is.

(Note that the actions you take as a child, such as sleep and nutrition, do affect your adult height, so if you want to call this "training" then people do increase their tallness through training. And I'm pretty sure cyclists do encompass nutrition and sleep in their overall "training" plans.)
 
yea, whatever, the point is that people only pay attention to things they can see with their eyes. They can see height, so it's a tangible, unalterable thing that exists. They can see someone riding 6 hours a day, so that's a thing that exists. They can't see a genetic predisposition for aerobic capacity, so it must be some je ne sais quoi we call "talent". But that "talent" is just as much something you're born with as height is.

(Note that the actions you take as a child, such as sleep and nutrition, do affect your adult height, so if you want to call this "training" then people do increase their tallness through training. And I'm pretty sure cyclists do encompass nutrition and sleep in their overall "training" plans.)
Well, you can see someone's height. This in and of itself doesn't usually constitute a particular talent, but you can't see genetic predisposition for vo2 max, which, if extremely high is in cycling called the essence of talent. Train your height? That's just called meeting normal dietary requirements. Beyond this, there's nothing you can do to grow taller except bs about it. So, no, you can't "train height" to gain centimeters, the way you can exercise to increase vo2 max. Leonardo da Vinci was born with an extraordinary predisposition for draftmanship, but he still had to become Verrocchio's apprentice and apply his talent to reach sublimity in art. By contrast, a lesser talent, even with the best artistic training and application, a Leonardo he does not become. The cycling equivalent is you can't make a donkey into a race horse.
 
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It certainly is strange that we call innate aerobic capacity "talent" whereas we'd never say someone who's 6'10" was born with a "talent" for being tall.
What has being tall got to do with aerobic capacity? If anything being tall is disadvantageous to cycling as that makes you heavier and hence a lower watts per kilo potential all else being equal. Being tall might help in TT as potentially you have a flatter, more aero back. But climbing its all about watts per kilo.

Of course aerobic capacity is talent in road cycling. And (relative) VO2 max as the most popular method of measuring endurance sport potential. VO2 max can't be improved much by training. Either you have it or not. Once you are lean you won't increase VO2 much further no matter how much you train. Your ceiling is determined by genetics.

Talent became clear to me nearly 30 years ago when I was doing triathlon. I finished a 90 minute training run building pace over the final 2km which took me to nearly my max heart rate (about 190). I was running with another guy who finished with me. We sat down on a brick wall to recover and watched our heart rates. After a minute mine was 140. His was 102. But I was training just as much as him and had been in the sport nearly a decade longer - he only started two years earlier. That is talent. No amount of training would get me to his level.

Response to doping methods is not a "talent".
 
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I can testify that on the RAI Processo alla Tappa today, when asked by Stefano Rizzato after the stage (in the first interview without other journos) if he thought winning on this climb, given Pantani's legacy, was more special, Tadej seemed decidedly annoyed. His response was, with a crossed look and frustrated sigh (a rare moment of discomposure), "not really, I mean it doesn't affect me, everytime I race in Italy they're always pointing out to me every climb Pantani did, but it's not relevant to me". However, in the second interview before a crew of journalists, when Rizzato asked the same question, Pogacar gave quite a different response. While still saying he wasn't really thinking about it, he then mulling it over diplomatically added, "but for all the Italians for whom Pantani was inspiring, I guess so". To then add that, in so many words, he thought he "felt Pantani's pressence" on the climb! Hilarious. The Italian cycling journos seem to conveniently overlook that Pantani is associated with a "doped to the gills era", which today's non-Italian riders don't particularlly want to be associated with (for image purposes, not because there is no doping today obviously). The sycophant deference on the one hand, is thus balanced by the hipocrasy on the other. Ask Gianetti about Pantani, Pogi.
 
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Oh, now I think I finally understand why people are talking about "responding to" this and that doping. It's like with medication in general.

But then the "good responders" logically would also mean there will possibly be more side effects/risks. And the not so good responders with less side effects might in reality be better responders, since less side effects etc.

So how would it in reality be possible to make an amazing athlete simply out of how they respond to a drug? Especially not without risking their lives? It doesn't make sense to me at all.
 
Oh, now I think I finally understand why people are talking about "responding to" this and that doping. It's like with medication in general.

But then the "good responders" logically would also mean there will possibly be more side effects/risks. And the not so good responders with less side effects might in reality be better responders, since less side effects etc.

So how would it in reality be possible to make an amazing athlete simply out of how they respond to a drug? Especially not without risking their lives? It doesn't make sense to me at all.

A good responder could be someone that doesn't get to many side effects from the drugs while also responding well to them.

With the current anti-doping regulations, it's very unlikely someone would die from taking drugs. They wouldn't be able to use high doses without getting caught.

Also, if we look at sports without anti-doping control, like bodybuilding, the biggest risk factor is the very high weight combined with very bad cardiovascular health. During the last 3-4 years, several well known bodybuilders have died from heart attacks or heart related issues.
 
Not the best anniversary ;)

Man, one thing I don't like is seeing Gianetti at races.

The riders are responsible of course but I always thought the people that prey on them and push them into it were worse

He reminds me of the warlock from Game of Thrones

GoT_Pyat_Pree-600x300.jpg
 
Also, if we look at sports without anti-doping control, like bodybuilding, the biggest risk factor is the very high weight combined with very bad cardiovascular health. During the last 3-4 years, several well known bodybuilders have died from heart attacks or heart related issues.
That's a great point. The modern era of professional bodybuilding is called the "mass monsters" (i.e. freak show. Lol). They take huge amounts of anabolic steroids, testosterone, growth hormones, IGF-1, anti-aromatization drugs, etc, spending thousands of dollars a month on their PED habit.

Contrast that with the Golden era bodybuilders in the 70's (e.g., Arnold, Lou Ferrigno, Frank Zane, Ken Waller, etc) who took relatively small amounts of a few steroids - they were actually in very good health (most of the Golden era guys are still alive today!).
 
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That's a great point. The modern era of professional bodybuilding is called the "mass monsters" (i.e. freak show. Lol). They take huge amounts of anabolic steroids, testosterone, growth hormones, IGF-1, anti-aromatization drugs, etc, spending thousands of dollars a month on their PED habit.

Contrast that with the Golden era bodybuilders in the 70's (e.g., Arnold, Lou Ferrigno, Frank Zane, Ken Waller, etc) who took relatively small amounts of a few steroids - they were actually in very good health (most of the Golden era guys are still alive today!).
I've seen Pumping Iron a few times and I think Arnold and that whole generation of bodybuilders looked so much better and more natural (despite the steroids and whatever else), their bodies and muscles looked well-defined and well-proportioned. (Especially Arnold.) The muscle monsters of today look like bloated freaks who look more like cartoons... of course, the bodybuilding community has standards of its own, to them the obvious steroid freak (like Ronnie Coleman or Jay Cutler) looks beautiful, I guess.
 
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Oh, now I think I finally understand why people are talking about "responding to" this and that doping. It's like with medication in general.

But then the "good responders" logically would also mean there will possibly be more side effects/risks. And the not so good responders with less side effects might in reality be better responders, since less side effects etc.

So how would it in reality be possible to make an amazing athlete simply out of how they respond to a drug? Especially not without risking their lives? It doesn't make sense to me at all.
I mean, the most obvious example in blood doping/EPO golden age was always that there were guys with comparably low hematocrit naturally that would then gain more improvement than guys that were comparatively high already. And I guess a little bit you can use that argument for all performance-relevant parameters like testosterone, growth hormone, and so on and so forth.

And yeah, obviously drugs are also metabolized differently. So overall, I just think its very complex to even determine a good and bad responder upfront.
 
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You've got to hand it to the new doped generation: That was fun to watch. My eyes never left Pogocar from 3 km to go. I don't even know who won the stage, because I was still staring at him in stunned disbelief when the winning riders crossed the line. I was cheering for him to win the friggin' stage!
Talk about hubris! Amazing stuff.
At least there's a tomorrow for Pogocar. And the next day, and the next day, and so on and so forth and more of the same.
 
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I mean, at least Armstrong had the grace and intelligence to pick his stages and share out the baubles with the lesser mortals. Pogacar wants to win everything and grind everyone into dust. Neither does there appear to be any attempt to conserve energy, probably in the knowledge that he doesn’t need to, that there will be no real impact on his energy and performance levels. Or if there is, then no one is going to be able to capitalise because the gap to the rest is so great in any case. That arrogance/exuberance (take your pick) can be his Kryptonite, especially when up against someone who can pick him off over a few days at high altitude (Jonas) but unfortunately this race is already over bar an accident. Overall I just don’t believe what I’m seeing, but it sure the hell isn’t sport, and I’m also sick of listening to the Eurosport ‘isn’t he amazing’ crap. No he’s not amazing, he’s a very naughty boy.
 
I mean, the most obvious example in blood doping/EPO golden age was always that there were guys with comparably low hematocrit naturally that would then gain more improvement than guys that were comparatively high already. And I guess a little bit you can use that argument for all performance-relevant parameters like testosterone, growth hormone, and so on and so forth.

And yeah, obviously drugs are also metabolized differently. So overall, I just think its very complex to even determine a good and bad responder upfront.
Well, Armstrong was clearly a good responder.
 
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I mean, at least Armstrong had the grace and intelligence to pick his stages and share out the baubles with the lesser mortals. Pogacar wants to win everything and grind everyone into dust. Neither does there appear to be any attempt to conserve energy, probably in the knowledge that he doesn’t need to, that there will be no real impact on his energy and performance levels. Or if there is, then no one is going to be able to capitalise because the gap to the rest is so great in any case. That arrogance/exuberance (take your pick) can be his Kryptonite, especially when up against someone who can pick him off over a few days at high altitude (Jonas) but unfortunately this race is already over bar an accident. Overall I just don’t believe what I’m seeing, but it sure the hell isn’t sport, and I’m also sick of listening to the Eurosport ‘isn’t he amazing’ crap. No he’s not amazing, he’s a very naughty boy.
On the RAI coverage the way of putting it is: "He does another sport" ("Fa un altro sport"), meaning he's in a class of his own.