Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[ivanic]

The sh*t normally hits the fan with police raids and not anti-doping organiztions. Bahrain got raided then Colbrelli nearly died so they dialled it down. Nairo & a few other fools got caught with Tramadol after they were warned that UCI were going to check for it, so the norm is warn riders so there's no scandal (which is why WADA have "monitoring programs" so riders know what not to take). Even the old regular bust of some rider just before the Tour to scare off people seems to have stopped.

usually before the Giro some unknown rider gets caught. We'll see.

yet another meaningless performance and there are only half words, the riders are silent, let's forget about the journalists.

On Twitter there is only Vayer, a few anonymous French profiles, all the others have disappeared. I only see positive comments, is this a nightmare?

 

[hrotha]

Where's Rmk--Rol (?) when we need him?
I apologize if I've misspelled his or hers name, but s/he's the guy who spent a long time in the Clinic telling everyone how stupid they are with all the doping talk, adding that there's nothing to see here.
I'm genuinely curious to hear his or hers thoughts on the matter.

fmk_rol can be annoying because his disdain for everyone not named fmk_rol seeps through his every post, but he's not naive. He didn't call people stupid for talking about how prevalent they think doping is, he'd call people stupid because they'd make stupid arguments then pat themselves on the back

 

[pastronef]

usually before the Giro some unknown rider gets caught. We'll see.

yet another meaningless performance and there are only half words, the riders are silent, let's forget about the journalists.

On Twitter there is only Vayer, a few anonymous French profiles, all the others have disappeared. I only see positive comments, is this a nightmare?

Vayer's words are just anger and bitterness and shouting. he was left out of the pro cycling circus after 1998 and never had a chance to find a job. he's toxic and people know it. misoginist, obsessed by Alaphilippe and Marion Rousse, fighting a personal battle against a Bahrain soigneur, accusing foreign riders while some French ones doing the same watts are fine for him.
accusing riders of hiding in altitude training camps while FDJ and their riders been doing the same, Preidler included. Vayer accusing Bardet of being -not normal- in July 2016 while saying yestarday he's the moral winner in Liege.
if twitter's antidoping fight is lead Vayer blabbing about speeds and a few others shouting when even teams post pictures of riders drinking ketones, well...

 

[Krzysztof_O]

I am fascinated by my own perception that Ramco is much more believable time trialing away from everyone then Toby. Toby's awful aerodynamics just don't help the suspension of disbelief, nor does his moderate effort destruction of the peloton

Haha, who needs aerodynamics when there's unlimited power!

 

[TrekCyclist]

Seems, it needs a Jonas Vingegaard (or a tactical sprint from a small group) to crack Pogacar. Which is still much more entertaining than nobody been able to challenge Lance (apart from Ullrich in 2003), for example.

 

[the delgados]

fmk_rol can be annoying because his disdain for everyone not named fmk_rol seeps through his every post, but he's not naive. He didn't call people stupid for talking about how prevalent they think doping is, he'd call people stupid because they'd make stupid arguments then pat themselves on the back

I regret introducing the term stupid and it's overall implications as a way to invite someone into a conversation. I can see how it's interpreted as provocation. My apologies.
I dislike fmk, but I respect his intelligence. I'm genuinely curious to get fmk's take on the current state of cycling for more reasons than one.
Just a note to edit to add that I have a different take on your explanation for why fmk called people stupid, but maybe that's a conversation to be had with fmk.

 

[Nick2413]

One of the problems is the narrative around doping is that even if they’re all doping, it’s not a problem because they’re all doing it. When in reality, we’re suddenly seeing a few specific riders head and shoulders above the rest, which kills the competition. The problem isn’t just the doping but rather the access to the best doping, and the imbalance seems more than usual lately.

 

[nayr497]

There is the myth Lance was unlikable. I don't know a single rider who is close to have a similar popularity to what Lance had back in the early 00's. Not even Contador.

Are we talking amongst the riders or the fans?

Never heard a rider from another squad talk nicely about Lance and have definitely heard guys on his own team (Frankie, Tyler) not say such nice things.

I also wouldn't call it a "myth" in any way. He came off as an arrogant liar, then he told his story and admitted he was an arrogant liar, then he hosted a podcast and he comes off as an arrogant jerk.

He's made his own myth, in my mind.

 

[nayr497]

One of the problems is the narrative around doping is that even if they’re all doping, it’s not a problem because they’re all doing it. When in reality, we’re suddenly seeing a few specific riders head and shoulders above the rest, which kills the competition. The problem isn’t just the doping but rather the access to the best doping, and the imbalance seems more than usual lately.

Thank you! You just summed up the entire PED issue in a few sentences. It's never the same, it's never equal.

Obviously something unequal is going on when Pogacar, van der Poel, Wout, and Vingegaard win every single race. It's bad for the sport and clearly signals something is going on.

 

[nayr497]

I hate that both VDP and Pogo look so good on a bike! Both of them always look just right. And, I typically don't like how tall guys look. Both are darn classy!

 

[Peyroteo94]

Are we talking amongst the riders or the fans?

Never heard a rider from another squad talk nicely about Lance and have definitely heard guys on his own team (Frankie, Tyler) not say such nice things.

I also wouldn't call it a "myth" in any way. He came off as an arrogant liar, then he told his story and admitted he was an arrogant liar, then he hosted a podcast and he comes off as an arrogant jerk.

He's made his own myth, in my mind.

Fans loved him. Some riders really hated him.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Fans loved him. Some riders really hated him.

Except for the fans that hated him!

 

[Cookster15]

Thank you! You just summed up the entire PED issue in a few sentences. It's never the same, it's never equal.

Obviously something unequal is going on when Pogacar, van der Poel, Wout, and Vingegaard win every single race. It's bad for the sport and clearly signals something is going on.

Absolutely doping isn't equal. Armstrong proved that. Its also why a doping free-for-all would never be a level playing field - doping costs $$$. What we are seeing is combination of doping and talent/training/marginal gains etc.

What I find annoying about this thread is that the OP obviously has a grudge against Pogacar whilst turning a blind eye to whoever his favorite riders are. I think we can guess.

 

[Blobs]

If there really is something new and game changing going on, how long until everyone is on it? The traditional methods trickled down to the rest of the peloton eventually, but it seems 2 or 3 riders are on something completely separate right now.

Speculating here, but it might not be practical for everyone to be on it. He rides for the UAE. Look what they did to Manchester City. They have put a seemingly endless amount of money into that club, in order to make it the best in the world, while not giving a *** about financial fair play.

If there's a similar endless money stream into the cycling team, he could be on the most comprehensive and expensive program in the history of the sport. It certainly looks that way when he rides.

 

[Slavique Nuke]

Speculating here, but it might not be practical for everyone to be on it. He rides for the UAE. Look what they did to Manchester City. They have put a seemingly endless amount of money into that club, in order to make it the best in the world, while not giving a *** about financial fair play.

If there's a similar endless money stream into the cycling team, he could be on the most comprehensive and expensive program in the history of the sport. It certainly looks that way when he rides.

I'm not sure what that has to do with the 'clinic'. They spend all this money on buying players. And because they have no fans for that team, they have little revenue. That is why they have a problem with FFP.

Other football teams also spend huge amounts on players, not just Man City (since 2008)

The cycling team is completely different, as Pogacar is probably the most popular rider at the moment. As a result, the cycling team is a good investment for UAE. Colnago's revenues are growing - https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/th...et-trend-and-triples-turnover-in-three-years/

 

[Blobs]

I'm not sure what that has to do with the 'clinic'. They spend all this money on buying players. And because they have no fans for that team, they have little revenue. That is why they have a problem with FFP.

Other football teams also spend huge amounts on players, not just Man City (since 2008)

The cycling team is completely different, as Pogacar is probably the most popular rider at the moment. As a result, the cycling team is a good investment for UAE. Colnago's revenues are growing - https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/th...et-trend-and-triples-turnover-in-three-years/

I was just making the point that probably not everyone can afford to get on what Pog is on.

As I understand it (and I might well be wrong), City have the biggest deficit of any club in the world, yet UAE keep putting money into it, so they must feel the publicity itself is a worthwhile investment as long as they have the (or one of the) best team(s) in the world.

Pog is the most popular rider in part because he's a fun character, but mostly because he's the best there is. They might have a budget to keep him the best, that no one, or very few, can match.

 

[Slavique Nuke]

I was just making the point that probably not everyone can afford to get on what Pog is on.

As I understand it (and I might well be wrong), City have the biggest deficit of any club in the world, yet UAE keep putting money into it, so they must feel the publicity itself is a worthwhile investment as long as they have the (or one of the) best team(s) in the world.

Pog is the most popular rider in part because he's a fun character, but mostly because he's the best there is. They might have a budget to keep him the best, that no one, or very few, can match.

No question that Man City is a huge money sinking business, like most football teams. But for a rich country like UAE, these losses are only pennies. There are much worse run teams, such as Barcelona, which is completely fan-owned with a large fan base, yet they are still constantly in huge debt. Or the post-Roman Chelsea which is owned by a equity firm/oligarchs. So in football it doesn't really matter whether a team is owned by a country like ManCity or PSG, or by oligarchs or fans they are always likely to be unprofitable money-suckers.

Pogacar's salary, 6 million euros a year, which I think at least 15 teams would be happy to pay if he was available. Not so long ago ProTeams like Total paid this much to Sagan or Israel to Froome.

 

[Blobs]

No question that Man City is a huge money sinking business, like most football teams. But for a rich country like UAE, these losses are only pennies. There are much worse run teams, such as Barcelona, which is completely fan-owned with a large fan base, yet they are still constantly in huge debt. Or the post-Roman Chelsea which is owned by a equity firm/oligarchs. So in football it doesn't really matter whether a team is owned by a country like ManCity or PSG, or by oligarchs or fans they are always likely to be unprofitable money-suckers.

Pogacar's salary, 6 million euros a year, which I think at least 15 teams would be happy to pay if he was available. Not so long ago ProTeams like Total paid this much to Sagan or Israel to Froome.

I'm not talking about his salary but about doping. Like you say it's pennies to them, so if they could spend 5 million euros per year on a program that created the greatest cyclist ever, it doesn't seem unreasonable that they would do it, and that might be why he's such an outlier, because no one can really come close to matching that.

Now like I said, it's pure speculation and I have no idea weather something like that is even possible.

I do seem to remember reading, a long time ago, that Jan Ullrich was spending 100.000 euros a year on doping back in the day, and so at least back then, and most likely still, budget plays a big part in why everybody can't just do the same thing.

 

[Slavique Nuke]

I'm not talking about his salary but about doping. Like you say it's pennies to them, so if they could spend 5 million euros per year on a program that created the greatest cyclist ever, it doesn't seem unreasonable that they would do it, and that might be why he's such an outlier, because no one can really come close to matching that.

Now like I said, it's pure speculation and I have no idea weather something like that is even possible.

I do seem to remember reading, a long time ago, that Jan Ullrich was spending 100.000 euros a year on doping back in the day, and so at least back then, and most likely still, budget plays a big part in why everybody can't just do the same thing.

If €5 million randomly made someone the world's greatest cyclist, there would be thousands of people vying for the title.

 

[Blobs]

If €5 million randomly made someone the world's greatest cyclist, there would be thousands of people vying for the title.

Not a random person. Obviously you start with a spectacularly talented cyclist. But if you have a group of similarly talented riders and one of them has a much bigger budget, that might make the difference.

 

[Slavique Nuke]

Not a random person. Obviously you start with a spectacularly talented cyclist. But if you have a group of similarly talented riders and one of them has a much bigger budget, that might make the difference.

UAE budget is big, but that's because they pay a lot to the riders. As they have many quality riders. I don't doubt that 'clinic' stuff doesn't happen at the team, of course it does, just like all the WT teams. But I doubt that the Sheikh as one of the richest men in the world is involved in any 'clinic' stuff or has any day to day insight into the cycling team or the sport in general.

My feeling is that at the end of the year Gianetti always prints out the UCI ranking and shows it to the big boss saying 'hey folks, we have the best team, if you keep transferring money the UAE name will stay at the top of the list' or something silly like that.

 

[Cookster15]

Speculating here, but it might not be practical for everyone to be on it. He rides for the UAE. Look what they did to Manchester City. They have put a seemingly endless amount of money into that club, in order to make it the best in the world, while not giving a *** about financial fair play.

If there's a similar endless money stream into the cycling team, he could be on the most comprehensive and expensive program in the history of the sport. It certainly looks that way when he rides.

Pogacar’s winning record stretches way back before he joined UAE. eg 2018 Tour de l‘Avenir.

 

[SHAD0W93]

Pogacar’s winning record stretches way back before he joined UAE. eg 2018 Tour de l‘Avenir.

I don’t remember if it was this poster or another but they were arguing that was after UAE scouted him so he was in development/system for UAE for 2018.

 

[samhocking]

I think Matxin first scouted him in 2015 or 2016, he was essentially signed in 2018 on a training camp with them iirc. Matxin's main role was scouting young talents, Ayuso at 17 for example.

 

[Cookster15]

I don’t remember if it was this poster or another but they were arguing that was after UAE scouted him so he was in development/system for UAE for 2018.

UAE already had Pogacar on their books when he won the 2018 Tour de l’Avenir.

But to claim a professional team scouted and identified a super responder to doping at such an early age this seems to be grasping at straws. One of the posters above is a rabid Vingegaard fan. I’d like to know who the OP follows as I don’t recall him commenting so outspokenly on other riders.

My view is Pogacar isn’t doing anything all the other protagonists aren’t also at least trying. For example, as a benchmark, how did old man Geraint Thomas hang with Pog and Vingo on the Alpe in 2022 when they rode that mountain 2 minutes faster than when Thomas himself won in 2018 when he was 4 years younger?