Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[nayr497]

I hate that both VDP and Pogo look so good on a bike! Both of them always look just right. And, I typically don't like how tall guys look. Both are darn classy!

 

[Peyroteo94]

Are we talking amongst the riders or the fans?

Never heard a rider from another squad talk nicely about Lance and have definitely heard guys on his own team (Frankie, Tyler) not say such nice things.

I also wouldn't call it a "myth" in any way. He came off as an arrogant liar, then he told his story and admitted he was an arrogant liar, then he hosted a podcast and he comes off as an arrogant jerk.

He's made his own myth, in my mind.

Fans loved him. Some riders really hated him.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Fans loved him. Some riders really hated him.

Except for the fans that hated him!

 

[Cookster15]

Thank you! You just summed up the entire PED issue in a few sentences. It's never the same, it's never equal.

Obviously something unequal is going on when Pogacar, van der Poel, Wout, and Vingegaard win every single race. It's bad for the sport and clearly signals something is going on.

Absolutely doping isn't equal. Armstrong proved that. Its also why a doping free-for-all would never be a level playing field - doping costs $$$. What we are seeing is combination of doping and talent/training/marginal gains etc.

What I find annoying about this thread is that the OP obviously has a grudge against Pogacar whilst turning a blind eye to whoever his favorite riders are. I think we can guess.

 

[Blobs]

If there really is something new and game changing going on, how long until everyone is on it? The traditional methods trickled down to the rest of the peloton eventually, but it seems 2 or 3 riders are on something completely separate right now.

Speculating here, but it might not be practical for everyone to be on it. He rides for the UAE. Look what they did to Manchester City. They have put a seemingly endless amount of money into that club, in order to make it the best in the world, while not giving a *** about financial fair play.

If there's a similar endless money stream into the cycling team, he could be on the most comprehensive and expensive program in the history of the sport. It certainly looks that way when he rides.

 

[Slavique Nuke]

Speculating here, but it might not be practical for everyone to be on it. He rides for the UAE. Look what they did to Manchester City. They have put a seemingly endless amount of money into that club, in order to make it the best in the world, while not giving a *** about financial fair play.

If there's a similar endless money stream into the cycling team, he could be on the most comprehensive and expensive program in the history of the sport. It certainly looks that way when he rides.

I'm not sure what that has to do with the 'clinic'. They spend all this money on buying players. And because they have no fans for that team, they have little revenue. That is why they have a problem with FFP.

Other football teams also spend huge amounts on players, not just Man City (since 2008)

The cycling team is completely different, as Pogacar is probably the most popular rider at the moment. As a result, the cycling team is a good investment for UAE. Colnago's revenues are growing - https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/th...et-trend-and-triples-turnover-in-three-years/

 

[Blobs]

I'm not sure what that has to do with the 'clinic'. They spend all this money on buying players. And because they have no fans for that team, they have little revenue. That is why they have a problem with FFP.

Other football teams also spend huge amounts on players, not just Man City (since 2008)

The cycling team is completely different, as Pogacar is probably the most popular rider at the moment. As a result, the cycling team is a good investment for UAE. Colnago's revenues are growing - https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/th...et-trend-and-triples-turnover-in-three-years/

I was just making the point that probably not everyone can afford to get on what Pog is on.

As I understand it (and I might well be wrong), City have the biggest deficit of any club in the world, yet UAE keep putting money into it, so they must feel the publicity itself is a worthwhile investment as long as they have the (or one of the) best team(s) in the world.

Pog is the most popular rider in part because he's a fun character, but mostly because he's the best there is. They might have a budget to keep him the best, that no one, or very few, can match.

 

[Slavique Nuke]

I was just making the point that probably not everyone can afford to get on what Pog is on.

As I understand it (and I might well be wrong), City have the biggest deficit of any club in the world, yet UAE keep putting money into it, so they must feel the publicity itself is a worthwhile investment as long as they have the (or one of the) best team(s) in the world.

Pog is the most popular rider in part because he's a fun character, but mostly because he's the best there is. They might have a budget to keep him the best, that no one, or very few, can match.

No question that Man City is a huge money sinking business, like most football teams. But for a rich country like UAE, these losses are only pennies. There are much worse run teams, such as Barcelona, which is completely fan-owned with a large fan base, yet they are still constantly in huge debt. Or the post-Roman Chelsea which is owned by a equity firm/oligarchs. So in football it doesn't really matter whether a team is owned by a country like ManCity or PSG, or by oligarchs or fans they are always likely to be unprofitable money-suckers.

Pogacar's salary, 6 million euros a year, which I think at least 15 teams would be happy to pay if he was available. Not so long ago ProTeams like Total paid this much to Sagan or Israel to Froome.

 

[Blobs]

No question that Man City is a huge money sinking business, like most football teams. But for a rich country like UAE, these losses are only pennies. There are much worse run teams, such as Barcelona, which is completely fan-owned with a large fan base, yet they are still constantly in huge debt. Or the post-Roman Chelsea which is owned by a equity firm/oligarchs. So in football it doesn't really matter whether a team is owned by a country like ManCity or PSG, or by oligarchs or fans they are always likely to be unprofitable money-suckers.

Pogacar's salary, 6 million euros a year, which I think at least 15 teams would be happy to pay if he was available. Not so long ago ProTeams like Total paid this much to Sagan or Israel to Froome.

I'm not talking about his salary but about doping. Like you say it's pennies to them, so if they could spend 5 million euros per year on a program that created the greatest cyclist ever, it doesn't seem unreasonable that they would do it, and that might be why he's such an outlier, because no one can really come close to matching that.

Now like I said, it's pure speculation and I have no idea weather something like that is even possible.

I do seem to remember reading, a long time ago, that Jan Ullrich was spending 100.000 euros a year on doping back in the day, and so at least back then, and most likely still, budget plays a big part in why everybody can't just do the same thing.

 

[Slavique Nuke]

I'm not talking about his salary but about doping. Like you say it's pennies to them, so if they could spend 5 million euros per year on a program that created the greatest cyclist ever, it doesn't seem unreasonable that they would do it, and that might be why he's such an outlier, because no one can really come close to matching that.

Now like I said, it's pure speculation and I have no idea weather something like that is even possible.

I do seem to remember reading, a long time ago, that Jan Ullrich was spending 100.000 euros a year on doping back in the day, and so at least back then, and most likely still, budget plays a big part in why everybody can't just do the same thing.

If €5 million randomly made someone the world's greatest cyclist, there would be thousands of people vying for the title.

 

[Blobs]

If €5 million randomly made someone the world's greatest cyclist, there would be thousands of people vying for the title.

Not a random person. Obviously you start with a spectacularly talented cyclist. But if you have a group of similarly talented riders and one of them has a much bigger budget, that might make the difference.

 

[Slavique Nuke]

Not a random person. Obviously you start with a spectacularly talented cyclist. But if you have a group of similarly talented riders and one of them has a much bigger budget, that might make the difference.

UAE budget is big, but that's because they pay a lot to the riders. As they have many quality riders. I don't doubt that 'clinic' stuff doesn't happen at the team, of course it does, just like all the WT teams. But I doubt that the Sheikh as one of the richest men in the world is involved in any 'clinic' stuff or has any day to day insight into the cycling team or the sport in general.

My feeling is that at the end of the year Gianetti always prints out the UCI ranking and shows it to the big boss saying 'hey folks, we have the best team, if you keep transferring money the UAE name will stay at the top of the list' or something silly like that.

 

[Cookster15]

Speculating here, but it might not be practical for everyone to be on it. He rides for the UAE. Look what they did to Manchester City. They have put a seemingly endless amount of money into that club, in order to make it the best in the world, while not giving a *** about financial fair play.

If there's a similar endless money stream into the cycling team, he could be on the most comprehensive and expensive program in the history of the sport. It certainly looks that way when he rides.

Pogacar’s winning record stretches way back before he joined UAE. eg 2018 Tour de l‘Avenir.

 

[SHAD0W93]

Pogacar’s winning record stretches way back before he joined UAE. eg 2018 Tour de l‘Avenir.

I don’t remember if it was this poster or another but they were arguing that was after UAE scouted him so he was in development/system for UAE for 2018.

 

[samhocking]

I think Matxin first scouted him in 2015 or 2016, he was essentially signed in 2018 on a training camp with them iirc. Matxin's main role was scouting young talents, Ayuso at 17 for example.

 

[Cookster15]

I don’t remember if it was this poster or another but they were arguing that was after UAE scouted him so he was in development/system for UAE for 2018.

UAE already had Pogacar on their books when he won the 2018 Tour de l’Avenir.

But to claim a professional team scouted and identified a super responder to doping at such an early age this seems to be grasping at straws. One of the posters above is a rabid Vingegaard fan. I’d like to know who the OP follows as I don’t recall him commenting so outspokenly on other riders.

My view is Pogacar isn’t doing anything all the other protagonists aren’t also at least trying. For example, as a benchmark, how did old man Geraint Thomas hang with Pog and Vingo on the Alpe in 2022 when they rode that mountain 2 minutes faster than when Thomas himself won in 2018 when he was 4 years younger?

 

[ppanther92]

Pogacar’s winning record stretches way back before he joined UAE. eg 2018 Tour de l‘Avenir.

Also UAE for the riders they have are not putting in too many great performances on a broad level at times. Last years Tour was the first with something like a consistently strong climbing support for Pogacar. Visma or formely Ineos/Sky seem way more streamlined and dominant in what they focus on. Or put differently - if Pogacar was only a result of an expensive doping program that only UAE can afford, they would certainly want a Pogacar #2 and a Pogacar #3, and better support for their Pogacars and so on, no? MSR for example was a huge fail on teamlevel again.

That said, since I am convinced doping is still a big part, and there is not only a difference in access but also response - it will never be a level-playing field.

On the other hand, one can also ask, to make it more philosophical, if winning the genetical lottery in terms of physical capacity is any more or any less pure luck than being a good responder to certain substances. Both cases are exogenous factors beyond the influence of oneself.

The most unfair thing is obviously the Armstrong type of case. Where one rider is protected by authorities and others are even specifically targeted if they come close to said rider. But I hope thats not the case this time.

 

[Blobs]

UAE budget is big, but that's because they pay a lot to the riders. As they have many quality riders. I don't doubt that 'clinic' stuff doesn't happen at the team, of course it does, just like all the WT teams. But I doubt that the Sheikh as one of the richest men in the world is involved in any 'clinic' stuff or has any day to day insight into the cycling team or the sport in general.

My feeling is that at the end of the year Gianetti always prints out the UCI ranking and shows it to the big boss saying 'hey folks, we have the best team, if you keep transferring money the UAE name will stay at the top of the list' or something silly like that.

If they have their own Ferrari guy, they might say they need 'X amount' transferred to him, which can't be on their books

Pogacar’s winning record stretches way back before he joined UAE. eg 2018 Tour de l‘Avenir.

I'm not sure what your point is. That doesn't contradict anything I've said

Also UAE for the riders they have are not putting in too many great performances on a broad level at times. Last years Tour was the first with something like a consistently strong climbing support for Pogacar. Visma or formely Ineos/Sky seem way more streamlined and dominant in what they focus on. Or put differently - if Pogacar was only a result of an expensive doping program that only UAE can afford, they would certainly want a Pogacar #2 and a Pogacar #3, and better support for their Pogacars and so on, no? MSR for example was a huge fail on teamlevel again.

That said, since I am convinced doping is still a big part, and there is not only a difference in access but also response - it will never be a level-playing field.

On the other hand, one can also ask, to make it more philosophical, if winning the genetical lottery in terms of physical capacity is any more or any less pure luck than being a good responder to certain substances. Both cases are exogenous factors beyond the influence of oneself.

The most unfair thing is obviously the Armstrong type of case. Where one rider is protected by authorities and others are even specifically targeted if they come close to said rider. But I hope thats not the case this time.

I'm sure Pog wants to be the undisputed leader. Having two other riders on his level would be terrible for team dynamics. You could have a Jumbo Vuelta-situation in every race, and soon the other two (or Pog himself) would want to leave the team, and the knowledge of what they're doing would spread to the rest of the peloton.

I don't think Lance would have liked to have other riders at his level in the team. The 2009 Tour is proof of that.

Edit: Also look at this stat:

What is the best team in 2025?

UAE Team Emirates - XRG has 12690 points so far, 12690 more than runner-up Team Visma | Lease a Bike. They are followed by Lidl - Trek (7712) and XDS Astana Team (6360).

www.procyclingstats.com

They're doing quite well. Miles ahead of everyone else.

 

[Cookster15]

@Blobs :-

I'm not sure what your point is. That doesn't contradict anything I've said

I wasn't referring to your comments. I was referring to the OPs reasoning when this thread started. I also think you are misconstruing ppanther92's point about Pog not having strong supporting teammates for the mountains but he/she can correct you.

 

[Cookster15]

to make it more philosophical, if winning the genetical lottery in terms of physical capacity is any more or any less pure luck than being a good responder to certain substances.

Just wanted to mention that I strongly disagree with this view. Winning the genetic lottery in terms of physical capacity is clearly talent. To suggest being a super responder to doping is "talent" is just wrong.

 

[proffate]

Just wanted to mention that I strongly disagree with this view. Winning the genetic lottery in terms of physical capacity is clearly talent. To suggest being a super responder to doping is "talent" is just wrong.

It certainly is strange that we call innate aerobic capacity "talent" whereas we'd never say someone who's 6'10" was born with a "talent" for being tall.

 

[Netserk]

It certainly is strange that we call innate aerobic capacity "talent" whereas we'd never say someone who's 6'10" was born with a "talent" for being tall.

You don't become taller by using your tallness.

 

[Nick2413]

In a perfect world I’d prefer talent to be purely based on actionable things like work ethic, training, strategy etc but in reality it’s half and half. Even aerodynamics and body shape make “talented” cyclists. But for things that are not even supposed to be a part of the sport like doping, it’s be nice if “talent” didn’t play a role.

 

[proffate]

You don't become taller by using your tallness.

and you don't increase your genetically determined vo2 max ceiling by exercising like Greg Lemond

 

[Rob5091]

Oooh, the real Teddy? 'roid rage?!
https://cyclinguptodate.com/cycling...uments-that-giro-is-won-before-it-even-starts

“That's ***, and not nice. It is not respectful to the other riders. It's not all just about me and UAE Emirates," ...."In the media, as is often the case, it is ***."