Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[GuntherL1]

Yeh, similar to a 60kg skeleton doing stage 16 of last year's TdF.

I don't trust either, but I don't see Vingegaard winning on all terrains.

 

[danielovichdk2]

Mauro is not clean. Pog might be though.

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

Absurd

 

[MartinGT]

Sits down and stops sprinting for the LOLS

 

[MartinGT]

His greed is going to get the better of him.

 

[NFTtiddies]

Did you guys honestly not expect that? Or have you not seen Pog/UAE riding before? It was known the moment he listed for the Giro that it would be an absolute snooze fest for #1.

 

[Ripper]

Sits down and stops sprinting for the LOLS

I like all the look backs, like, "take that MFs"

 

[Netserk]

Lol, he was slower than Ulissi on the climb.

 

[the delgados]

His greed is going to get the better of him.

How so?
I could be wrong, but I'm guessing guys like him are on next level stuff that isn't even on the radar. Combine that with the backing he has from UAE and race organizers (wasn't he paid a bunch to ride the Giro?) and it's hard to see where things could go wrong.

 

[Unchained]

How so?
I could be wrong, but I'm guessing guys like him are on next level stuff that isn't even on the radar. Combine that with the backing he has from UAE and race organizers (wasn't he paid a bunch to ride the Giro?) and it's hard to see where things could go wrong.

There are a few video interviews on YouTube and other places, were pro riders nearing the end, or recently retired talk about the over the top scientific methods being applied to pro cycling and it's actually so crazy that all say a career of @10 years looks improbable in their opinion. Maybe Pogacar is just living... Make hay while the sun shines.. Maybe he has knee or back pain and knows he needs to win while he can.. Greedy doesn't fit to me, I don't read him as greedy or attention whore

 

[Extinction]

There are a few video interviews on YouTube and other places, were pro riders nearing the end, or recently retired talk about the over the top scientific methods being applied to pro cycling and it's actually so crazy that all say a career of @10 years looks improbable in their opinion. Maybe Pogacar is just living... Make hay while the sun shines.. Maybe he has knee or back pain and knows he needs to win while he can.. Greedy doesn't fit to me, I don't read him as greedy or attention whore

Greed in the sense of taking all the spoils, sooner or later you make enemies (amongst colleagues and those with vested interests in alternative outcomes).

 

[Cookster15]

I don't trust either, but I don't see Vingegaard winning on all terrains.

Doubtful this is due to a doping advantage by Pogacar. This versatility is likely why Pogacar is way more popular than Vingo. Pog's results began long before he was noticed by Gianetti too. So it ain't just doping which why I find the reasoning in the OP a little nasty. At such a young age there is always big improvement from natural progression.

Nobody thinks Pogacar is clean, its just the double standards I take exception to.

As for today, he's riding for the double. Smart he doesn't waste energy and just takes sprint wins when he has the opportunity.

 

[Extinction]

Doubtful this is due to a doping advantage by Pogacar. This versatility is likely why Pogacar is way more popular than Vingo. Pog's results began long before he was noticed by Gianetti too. So it ain't just doping which why I find the reasoning in the OP a little nasty. At such a young age there is always big improvement from natural progression.

Nobody thinks Pogacar is clean, its just the double standards I take exception to.

As for today, he's riding for the double. Smart he doesn't waste energy and just takes sprint wins when he has the opportunity.

Right, but how do you qualify this? All things being equal with doping (but is this true, with the colossal budget teams versus the peones?), is he simply technically the best? It would seems so, yes. Although, until proven otherwise, I'd argue Vingegaard is still the most aerobically efficient, which is pure genetics.

 

[Cookster15]

Greed in the sense of taking all the spoils, sooner or later you make enemies (amongst colleagues and those with vested interests in alternative outcomes).

I don't sense there are riders in the peloton with any resentment toward's Pog because he wins a lot. Today he rode smart. Was Merckx despised or simply admired by his rivals? I think it was the latter. I think the peloton admires Pogacar in a similar way. Armstrong wasn't admired like that, riders kept their mouths shut as they knew how vindictive Lance could be for example the Simeoni incident.

But Pog will never be as dominant as Merckx for two reasons, a) he can't win pure sprints and b) Merckx never had a rival on the level of Vingegaard.

 

[Cookster15]

Right, but how do you qualify this? All things being equal with doping (but is this true, with the colossal budget teams versus the peones?), is he simply technically the best? It would seems so, yes. Although, until proven otherwise, I'd argue Vingegaard is still the most aerobically efficient, which is pure genetics.

I'd argue that is a subjective view. My subjective view is Vingegaard's rise is explained by doping and that he is a better responder than Pog.

It seems clear that Visma are every bit as cutting edge in doping as UAE. Oxygen vector doping boosts aerobic efficiency. How can you can you say Vingegaard is more genetically aerobically efficient?? Because his dad said he has a 103 VO2 max? Why didn't an athlete with world record aerobic efficiency do anything noteworthy in cycling before Ventoux in the 2021 TdF? Nobody had Vingegaard on any list of contenders until 7th July 2021.

 

[noob]

The more I look at it with my noob eyes it seems like this; if everyone is microdosing it would make zero sense it wouldn't filter out all of those who doesn't respond well, so that the others couldn't even reach UCI top 30 or even 50 in a year. Hence Pog (or Jonas) results can't be explained by good responding. It makes too little sense. Either a different /new drug, a different method, a combo of both or a new method of hiding whatever they take so that they can take a higher dose than others.

It's also interesting how my noob brain is starting to shift from "Armstrong was worse than the others" to "Armstrong was targeted because he was a psychopath and people wanted revenge". It also makes Greg Lemond even more problematic, but that's another story lol.

 

[Extinction]

I'd argue that is a subjective view. My subjective view is Vingegaard's rise is explained by doping and that he is a better responder than Pog.

It seems clear that Visma are every bit as cutting edge in doping as UAE. Oxygen vector doping boosts aerobic efficiency. How can you can you say Vingegaard is more genetically aerobically efficient?? Because his dad said he has a 103 VO2 max? Why didn't an athlete with world record aerobic efficiency do anything noteworthy in cycling before Ventoux in the 2021 TdF? Nobody had Vingegaard on any list of contenders until 7th July 2021.

Well, "I'd argue" already announces the subective view. I'd like to know lots of data on Pogacar, but everything is top secret. There are many reasons why someone with shattering genetics doesn't come to the fore: lack of interest, dedication, passion, technique etc., this in itself is no indicator of physical talent. But talent alone, without applied race circumstances remains theoretical. Anyway, I doub't Pog and Vingo are deficient in modern doping, however, I'd bet on Vingo for aerobic capcity, Pog for all the rest.

 

[Savant12]

Pog is Merckx’s secret love child. Got all the good genes and blood.

 

[Nomad]

Either a different /new drug, a different method, a combo of both or a new method of hiding whatever they take so that they can take a higher dose than others.

What could these "different/new" drug(s) be that are so clandestine & secret from the anti-doping agencies? (Inquiring minds want to know. Lol)

Through the history of doping in professional sports there's been undetectable, under the radar PEDs that weren't kept undetectable nor secret for very long. Remember CERA? (3rd gen ESA). It came out in 2007 & was all the rave of all endurance athletes since it was not only undetectable but it only required once or twice a month dosing to reach target Hgb levels. But it didn't taken long for WADA to catch wind about this new ESA, and once they conferred with the manufacturer, Roche Pharmaceuticals, they developed a test for it. Riccardo Ricco was the first casualty when he tested positive for CERA at the 08 Tour. Next came many more on re-tests. Now only a fool would use CERA. Lol.

And there's BALCO & the undetectable designer steroid, "The Clear" (Tetrahdyrogestrinone/"THG"). It didn't take very long for a whistleblower to blow open Victor Conte & his BALCO operation plus good detective work by USADA in identifying THC & developing a test for it.

So, if there's some underground magic potion(s) out there, I don't know how it can be kept secret from anti-doping this long?

 

[Red Rick]

The more I look at it with my noob eyes it seems like this; if everyone is microdosing it would make zero sense it wouldn't filter out all of those who doesn't respond well, so that the others couldn't even reach UCI top 30 or even 50 in a year. Hence Pog (or Jonas) results can't be explained by good responding. It makes too little sense. Either a different /new drug, a different method, a combo of both or a new method of hiding whatever they take so that they can take a higher dose than others.

It's also interesting how my noob brain is starting to shift from "Armstrong was worse than the others" to "Armstrong was targeted because he was a psychopath and people wanted revenge". It also makes Greg Lemond even more problematic, but that's another story lol.

Armstrong absolutely had his connections with the UCI, and him outdoping the rest is absolutely plausible based on what we know. That in itself is seperated from the fact that his own hubris was his undoing that he made too many people just say "*** that guy" in the end.

And I agree on microdosing. It might still be a thing. But I really don't believe for a second that is all that is going on right now.

My general thinking right now is we're kinda focusing too much on oxygen vectors when that's probably the most well monitored variable out there, and thus the hardest to manipulate without getting busted.

Also, the talk about literal gene doping doesn't really make sense cause if it was literally that we'd be seeing headlines everywhere about gene therapy miracle cures. But peptides and drugs with a more intracellular mode of action is probably the more interesting direction.

 

[noob]

What could these "different/new" drug(s) be that are so clandestine & secret from the anti-doping agencies? (Inquiring minds want to know. Lol)

Through the history of doping in professional sports there's been undetectable, under the radar PEDs that weren't kept undetectable nor secret for very long. Remember CERA? (3rd gen ESA). It came out in 2007 & was all the rave of all endurance athletes since it was not only undetectable but it only required once or twice a month dosing to reach target Hgb levels. But it didn't taken long for WADA to catch wind about this new ESA, and once they conferred with the manufacturer, Roche Pharmaceuticals, they developed a test for it. Riccardo Ricco was the first casualty when he tested positive for CERA at the 08 Tour. Next came many more on re-tests. Now only a fool would use CERA. Lol.

And there's BALCO & the undetectable designer steroid, "The Clear" (Tetrahdyrogestrinone/"THG"). It didn't take very long for a whistleblower to blow open Victor Conte & his BALCO operation plus good detective work by USADA in identifying THC & developing a test for it.

So, if there's some underground magic potion(s) out there, I don't know how it can be kept secret from anti-doping this long?

I don't know. It's just oh so quiet. Too quiet.
There hasn't been a big bust for quite some time despite the peleton going faster and breaking climbing records. So obviously they're doing something better than in the past. Overall.

The term "super responder" to medication doesn’t sound accurate to me though. It sounds too magical/unspecific and rarely is an explanation down to one isolated factor.) Less side effects could only partially explain it.

But/and/or:

The broken climbing records, faster times and longer attacks could also be partially explained by stages being shorter?

And/or etc

Who really wants another big bust, knowing how it affected the sport last time? How would such thoughts not influence people involved in the process? How could teams not be aware of this?

What I mean is basically there doesn't even have to be bribes for people not to get caught. Or for teams taking bigger risks since they assume someone will save them. Because no one involved wants to kill cycling.

 

[Mayomaniac]

Armstrong absolutely had his connections with the UCI, and him outdoping the rest is absolutely plausible based on what we know. That in itself is seperated from the fact that his own hubris was his undoing that he made too many people just say "*** that guy" in the end.

And I agree on microdosing. It might still be a thing. But I really don't believe for a second that is all that is going on right now.

My general thinking right now is we're kinda focusing too much on oxygen vectors when that's probably the most well monitored variable out there, and thus the hardest to manipulate without getting busted.

Also, the talk about literal gene doping doesn't really make sense cause if it was literally that we'd be seeing headlines everywhere about gene therapy miracle cures. But peptides and drugs with a more intracellular mode of action is probably the more interesting direction.

At the same time the bio passport has been dismanteled in court multiple times, so taking more risks with tranfusions and microdosing epo seems to be on the card.
Also the problems with the current Epo test...

 

[Netserk]

Also, the talk about literal gene doping doesn't really make sense cause if it was literally that we'd be seeing headlines everywhere about gene therapy miracle cures.

Agreed, but we do see such headlines.

https://investor.regeneron.com/news-releases/news-release-details/latest-db-oto-results-show-dramatically-improved-hearing-normal

I lean most towards some kind of blood doping, we know it works and that it can explain such speeds.

 

[Red Rick]

Agreed, but we do see such headlines.

https://investor.regeneron.com/news-releases/news-release-details/latest-db-oto-results-show-dramatically-improved-hearing-normal

I lean most towards some kind of blood doping, we know it works and that it can explain such speeds.

That's a phase 2 trial where the news was published this week. Would take a bit more for gene doping to spread very wide in the peloton I think. I think the targets for gene doping in cyclists would also be a lot less specific than in this specific instance.

 

[Netserk]

Yeah, I don't think it's plausible with the timing of the acceleration of the peloton. I'd think it should be possible (in the future) to increase natural production of testosterone, growth-hormone and EPO. I don't know how poly-genetic those are, but I guess it's like height, so with the order of magnitude of ~10,000 genes.