Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Extinction]

Thanks I didn’t recall that. But maybe Pantani was saving himself knowing his quite unbelievable ascent of the Alpe the following day? Achieved on ancient technology by today’s standards too. His bike was light but alloy, not carbon and non aero. And as we discussed upthread doubtful his uphill superiority could all be attributable to EPO.

Even Pantani could have an off-climbing day. The real difference between him climbing and Indurain, was at the Motirolo-Aprica stage of the 94 Giro. This was when the Italian TV comentator said Pantani on the Mortirolo was like watching a raging bull charge up a mountain. Indurain blew up and lost that Giro to Berzin, who was also dropped by Marco, as a result. Big Mig though had some fine climbing days, another was Hautacam in the 94 Tour, but mostly he had to ride with prudence against the pure goats.

 

[Froome]

In 1995 Big Mig did 500+ watts for 45 minutes on La Plagne crushing Pantani and co in the process. Alpe was the next day and didn't matter for the GC that much.

Indurain is probably one of the most underrated climbers ever.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Indurain is probably one of the most underrated climbers ever.

ITTs won him a lot of GTs so he usually rode conservatively in the mountains. He won Giro-Tour double twice for a reason: he usually didn't have to go too deep in the mountains and had enough in the tank for the Tour. But sometimes he showed incredible level in the mountains, when he had to (i.e. La Plagne).

 

[pastronef]

Even Pantani could have an off-climbing day. The real difference between him climbing and Indurain, was at the Motirolo-Aprica stage of the 94 Giro. This was when the Italian TV comentator said Pantani on the Mortirolo was like watching a raging bull charge up a mountain. Indurain blew up and lost that Giro to Berzin, who was also dropped by Marco, as a result. Big Mig though had some fine climbing days, another was Hautecam in the 95 Tour, but mostly he had to ride with prudence against the pure goats.

Hautacam 94 in the fog (noone saw the climb) and La Plagne 95

 

[Extinction]

Hautacam 94 in the fog (noone saw the climb) and La Plagne 95

Right Hautacam was in 94, when on GC I think Indurain won of course, Ugrjumovs was 2nd and Pantani 3rd. On Hautacam Pantani I think attacked from the bottom, but he wasn't going in full flight just yet. So Indurain, in one of his best climbing days ever, bridged up with Luc Leblanc in tow, dropped Pantani, with the Frenchman winning the stage with a late attack inside 1 km to go. It was very foggy on the mountain.

 

[Extinction]

Yup. Armstrong himself was an excellent climber and coupled with his ITT level he was arguably one of two best riders in TdF history (alongside Indurain). Long ITTs would be too much for Pantani vs Armstrong. One long ITT per Tour then he would have a better chance but even in this case incredible consistency of Armstrong and his team would be hard to topple.

True Armstrong had the most solid team and would build up a big lead with a TT and the first mountain stage. However, he could be vulnerable deep in the race in the mountains and that's where Pantani could have made him seriously crack and ship big time. I think the Pantani of 99, had Madonna di Campiglio not happened, would have been flying in the Tour uphill. And he would have had peak powers in 2000, 2001, 2002 and possibly 2003. I'm not saying he would have consistently won more Tours, but 1 or 2 plausibly, again had Madonna di Campiglio never gone down. Doubtless, however, he would have done more climbing feats and probably set more climbing record times.

 

[Cookster15]

ITTs won him a lot of GTs so he usually rode conservatively in the mountains. He won Giro-Tour double twice for a reason: he usually didn't have to go too deep in the mountains and had enough in the tank for the Tour. But sometimes he showed incredible level in the mountains, when he had to (i.e. La Plagne).

During Indurain's reign people kept saying it was impossible a rider his size beat little climbers in the mountains - but he kept rubbing mud in their faces. Hautacam 1994 was a great example, he let Leblanc take the stage after riding off the front in pursuit of Pantani near the bottom. Pantani was eventually 16 seconds down on stage. Another example of Indurain's underrated climbing was 1993 - to stage 10 to Serre Chevalier. He finished with Rominger but check the time gaps to climbers like Virenque, Zulle, Bugno and Chiappucci

Tour de France 1993 Stage 10 results

Tony Rominger is the winner of Tour de France 1993 Stage 10, before Alvaro Mejia and Miguel Indurain. Miguel Indurain was leader in GC.

www.procyclingstats.com

 

[Extinction]

Right Hautacam was in 94, when on GC I think Indurain won of course, Ugrjumovs was 2nd and Pantani 3rd. On Hautacam Pantani I think attacked from the bottom, but he wasn't going in full flight just yet. So Indurain, in one of his best climbing days ever, bridged up with Luc le Blanc in tow, dropped Pantani, with the Frenchman winning the stage with a late attack inside 1 km to go. It was very foggy on the mountain.

PS: The thing is Armstrong could not have lived with Pantani, had Madonna di Campiglio never happened. Marco would have made Lance extremely nervous, with his nous for the right moment to attack, unpredictability (the Texan liked to have everything under control, but with Pantani that's not possible) and his indomitable will. Pantani was one tough son-of-a...in cycling terms, who would not have been intimidated, nor bullied into submission and Lance knows it. Pantani, without Madonna di Campiglio, would have been US Postal's worst nightmare, other than Ullrich.

 

[GuntherL1]

I'm not sure if you actually watch cycling or understand what's going on there. In the stages Pog won, he was always a massive favourite. The Giro route is very easy and the quality of the startlist is extremely low. The question has always been how many stages he wants to win. Literally everything at the Giro is what everyone expected.

So I don't know why the trolls are surprised now.

Well, I've never seen GT before where the 'massive favourite' wins 5 stages, gets on the podium 8 times and finishes in the top 20 twelve times and never has a difficult moment. It's almost as bad as in Catalunya where he made a fool out Landa, Vlasov, Mas and Kuss. Let me guess: 3rd tier riders, right?

 

[Froome]

Well, I've never seen GT before where the 'massive favourite' wins 5 stages, gets on the podium 8 times and finishes in the top 20 twelve times and never has a difficult moment. It's almost as bad as in Catalunya where he made a fool out Landa, Vlasov, Mas and Kuss. Let me guess: 3rd tier riders, right?

This is a result of a generational talented rider +3rd tier riders in a race of 21 days.

 

[Cookster15]

Well, I've never seen GT before where the 'massive favourite' wins 5 stages, gets on the podium 8 times and finishes in the top 20 twelve times and never has a difficult moment. It's almost as bad as in Catalunya where he made a fool out Landa, Vlasov, Mas and Kuss. Let me guess: 3rd tier riders, right?

Well Landa, Vlasov and Mas are not stronger riders than those currently behind Pog at this Giro. You’d could make a case for Kuss on last year’s Vuelta but Landa was convincingly beaten by Jai Hindley two years ago.

You’d have more credibility if you commented about any other rider - including Vingegaard? You are certainly not impartial and this is the biggest issue I have with your opinion as the OP. A thread on Pog would have been posted by someone else anyway after the 2020 TdF knowing what happened on stage 20 and the sport’s history. But other posters are not so myopic IMO. For example we know @Froome is a big Vingegaard fan here but way more fair and objective.

 

[Ripper]

This is a result of a generational talented rider +3rd tier riders in a race of 21 days.

+ something else

Just saying 😉🤔

It ain't all just generational talent baby!

 

[Krzysztof_O]

This is a result of a generational talented rider +2rd tier riders in a race of 21 days.

Fixed it for you. Explained in another post.

+ something else

Just saying 😉🤔

It ain't all just generational talent baby!

Apparently Teddy (by accident) drank a bit of orange juice before PDBF, which won him the Tour in 2020. The effects were unbelievable so he keeps doing it. But it's a top secret so shhhh...

 

[Froome]

Fixed it for you. Explained in another post.



Apparently Teddy (by accident) drank a bit of orange juice before PDBF, which won him the Tour in 2020. The effects were unbelievable so he keeps doing it. But it's a top secret so shhhh...

Naaaa......... 3rd tier. There's not a single top 15 climber in this race except for Pogacar.

 

[pastronef]

Naaaa......... 3rd tier. There's not a single top 15 climber in this race except for Pogacar.

Dani Martinez the nearest

 

[Scarponi]

PS: The thing is Armstrong could not have lived with Pantani, had Madonna di Campiglio never happened. Marco would have made Lance extremely nervous, with his nous for the right moment to attack, unpredictability (the Texan liked to have everything under control, but with Pantani that's not possible) and his indomitable will. Pantani was one tough son-of-a...in cycling terms, who would not have been intimidated, nor bullied into submission and Lance knows it. Pantani, without Madonna di Campiglio, would have been US Postal's worst nightmare, other than Ullrich.

Truly
Robbed of one of the greatest cycling battles of all
Time. Armstrong and Pantani set their times alone,
Imagine how hard they would have had to push if they had someone on their wheel.

 

[snipeheem]

Truly
Robbed of one of the greatest cycling battles of all
Time. Armstrong and Pantani set their times alone,
Imagine how hard they would have had to push if they had someone on their wheel.

Looking at their peak numbers Marco would smoke him a lot of times in the mountains

 

[Extinction]

Looking at their peak numbers Marco would smoke him a lot of times in the mountains

Exactly and that would have driven Armstrong insane. Let's remember, Armstrong never had to deal with a peak Pantani, who, unlike Ullrich, would have made him lose hair and given him sleepless nights.

 

[Froome]

Exactly and that would have driven Armstrong insane. Let's remember, Armstrong never had to deal with a peak Pantani, who, unlike Ullrich, would have made him lose hair and given him sleepless nights.

The only thing who could save Armstrong against Pantani, was the usual 2 time trials of 55 km in the Tour.

 

[Extinction]

The only thing who could save Armstrong against Pantani, waa the usual 2 time trials of 55 km in the Tour.

That is most probably true.

 

[Froome]

That is most probably true.

Since Armstrong would get spanked in the mountains.

 

[Cookster15]

Exactly and that would have driven Armstrong insane. Let's remember, Armstrong never had to deal with a peak Pantani, who, unlike Ullrich, would have made him lose hair and given him sleepless nights.

Armstrong looked really cranky when Pantani dared to challenge him on Ventoux in 2000. I think he also made some narky comments afterwards. Yet Marco was clearly at a lower level by the 2000 TdF after what happened at Madonna di Campiglio.

 

[Froome]

Armstrong looked really cranky when Pantani dared to challenge him on Ventoux in 2000. I think he also made some narky comments afterwards. Yet Marco was clearly at a lower level by the 2000 TdF after what happened at Madonna di Campiglio.

Even so, Pantani dropped Armstrong on courchevel right?

 

[TrekCyclist]

Apparently Teddy (by accident) drank a bit of orange juice before PDBF,

For me, he rather reminds me somehow of Obelix, who accidentally fell into magic potion as a kid. Which made him unbeatable and stronger than all those who have to drink magic potion before each battle.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Even so, Pantani dropped Armstrong on courchevel right?

He was already zillion minutes behind. Armstrong, who crushed Pantani in Hautacam, didn't have to react. OTOH Pantani's suicidal attack during the next stage to Morzine made Armstrong very nervous and likely caused his bonk on Joux Plane (probably forgot to eat properly). Pantani in top form could've definitely made Armstrong nervous more often and beaten him during at least one edition. Still, Armstrong would have been hard to beat in most years other than 2003. I.e. In 2001 he was incredibly strong in the mountains, even Pantani would have had hard time creating gaps then while Armstrong would have crushed him (like he crushed Ullrich and co.) in the last super-long ITT.