Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[cnort]

I feel like the next step is to just give up on anti-doping entirely...

Isn't that what a lot of other high profile, big money sports have done? Or maybe it's that they never started looking under stones in the first place. Imagine an alternative universe where Tommy Simpson didn't die - things might have turned out very differently in terms of dope testing and control in cycling.

 

[Elos Anjos]

LOL @ users that think Pogacar is faking his happy go lucky personality or other conspirancy theories about Matxin setting up a propaganda program. Of course this is not incompatible with a fiercely competitive stand.

But Pogacar's really enjoys racing. And his personality, not his public persona, rightly fits with the following generational change: once you had the bad boys but with the social networks all is too scrutinized too quickly with emoticons so that grudges don't have time to be created. He is rife with the charisma of a kid because he is one but he is also very, very mature in his objectives.

Finally, I beileve that all the big 6 are doping.
I also believe that Pogacar is the biggest talent of them all.
But I have doubts that he's the best responder to doping.
Point being that they are too big to get caught.

 

[Extinction]

LOL @ users that think Pogacar is faking his happy go lucky personality or other conspirancy theories about Matxin setting up a propaganda program. Of course this is not incompatible with a fiercely competitive stand.

But Pogacar's really enjoys racing. And his personality, not his public persona, rightly fits with the following generational change: once you had the bad boys but with the social networks all is too scrutinized too quickly with emoticons so that grudges don't have time to be created. He is rife with the charisma of a kid because he is one but he is also very, very mature in his objectives.

Finally, I beileve that all the big 6 are doping.
I also believe that Pogacar is the biggest talent of them all.
But I have doubts that he's the best responder to doping.
Point being that they are too big to get caught.

Pogi's character is a constructed persona. Gianetti learned from the "bad boy" Ricco experience, so Tadej needs to come across as whiter than snow. But every once and a while he naturally slips, deviates from the media constructed persona, and reveals a darker side. So you believe Vingegaard is the best responder. Yet at their level I'd say you can only raise hematacrit a few percentage points in either case, so response is less the issue, but VO2 max and recovery rates.

 

[Nick2413]

I wouldn’t call it a conspiracy theory to say public image is paid close attention to and even if he has the right natural personality they still want to leverage it to keep doping talk away. Even aside from doping, with all the buzz of him being too greedy recently, the happy-go-lucky persona helps balance those vibes, and I don’t blame them.

All doping is conspiracy after all, so maybe being a conspiracy theorist isn’t such a bad thing. Unless anyone actually believes these guys are clean.

 

[Red Rick]

While it's silly to say it's a completely manufactured persona, it's also to ignore how easily it captivates a lot of fans for very superficial reasons and how most fans are very unwilling to ask questions about his performances because of it.

Contrast the reaction to Vingegaards Tour ITT to Pogacar's entire season right now.

I don't doubt that Pogacar is nice, good natured dude, but he absolutely leans into it for max PR value to build a brand. Guy smiles at the camera any chance he gets.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Speaking about Teddy: PR definitely is a factor here but I also believe he's a good natured guy in general (which can be also deduced from interviews with some other guys), who obviously has some darker side (but who doesn't?). Obviously being generally liked potentially helps for the future (regarding many things, doping included), therefore PR is also present.

 

[BubbaChuck]

bahhha,listen to hilarius stuff.pog at least looked human on some occasions in realtion to others.if anybody is doing serius amamba juice its visma by country mile.

 

[Hugh Januss]

I get a kick out of the game that people play here where they think they can tell who is doping and how much by how they act.

 

[roundabout]

While it's silly to say it's a completely manufactured persona, it's also to ignore how easily it captivates a lot of fans for very superficial reasons and how most fans are very unwilling to ask questions about his performances because of it.

Contrast the reaction to Vingegaards Tour ITT to Pogacar's entire season right now.

I don't doubt that Pogacar is nice, good natured dude, but he absolutely leans into it for max PR value to build a brand. Guy smiles at the camera any chance he gets.

You want the same level of scrutiny for Pogacar dominating against DFM and Geraint Thomas nearing retirement (and Landa and co in Catalunya, Bardet in Liege etc) and Vingegaard dominating against Pogacar?

I think I will not take any 'weak field' type arguments from you seriously ever again.

 

[Red Rick]

You want the same level of scrutiny for Pogacar dominating against DFM and Geraint Thomas nearing retirement (and Landa and co in Catalunya, Bardet in Liege etc) and Vingegaard dominating against Pogacar?

I think I will not take any 'weak field' type arguments from you seriously ever again.

No it's about the complete picture. Not any single race.

Climber winning De Ronde? "OMG it's amazing"

Winning Strade with 80km never in doubt solo "OMG it's amazing".


The one time some eyebrows have been raised at Pogacar was after the LPDBF ITT, which barely makes the top 10 of WTF performances by Pogacar.

Similar thing with Van der Poel. Does the most ridiculous *** and nobody asks a question.

 

[Slavique Nuke]

It's still funny how angry people are because he dominated the Giro against Dani Martinez who is at best only the fourth strongest GC rider even in his own team.

 

[Elos Anjos]

Pogi's character is a constructed persona. Gianetti learned from the "bad boy" Ricco experience, so Tadej needs to come across as whiter than snow. But every once and a while he naturally slips, deviates from the media constructed persona, and reveals a darker side. So you believe Vingegaard is the best responder. Yet at their level I'd say you can only raise hematacrit a few percentage points in either case, so response is less the issue, but VO2 max and recovery rates.

That's a strong statement with no evidence whatsoever besides your own bias.

Is this what's left for Pogacar's haters? To resort to the urgenct of unraveling the "dark side" of his character that only a well-tight and paid program has kept under control? To assert that all the friendly behavior we see in social media, in interviews and on the road are all by design?

You are not even wrong.

 

[Extinction]

That's a strong statement with no evidence whatsoever besides your own bias.

Is this what's left for Pogacar's haters? To resort to the urgenct of unraveling the "dark side" of his character that only a well-tight and paid program has kept under control? To assert that all the friendly behavior we see in social media, in interviews and on the road are all by design?

You are not even wrong.

I've presented evidence. Go look up the interviews with Stefano Rizzato if you are able. All the friendly behavior is to win the crowd and certainly by design with Gianetti (Ricco was a lesson well learned). Talk about bias, you would have him be the Christ.

 

[Elos Anjos]

I've presented evidence. Go look up the interviews with Stefano Rizzato if you are able. All the friendly behavior is to win the crowd and certainly by design with Gianetti (Ricco was a lesson well learned). Talk about bias, you would have him be the Christ.

What evidence?
You should be and you can be better that this. There's a degree of crackpot when someone considers that for a rider to be nice, friendly and straightforward suffices to uncover a PR plot paid by oil money.

If you really think - which I'm sure you don't - that I would have Pogar as Jesus Christ you shouldn't even be discussing the issue, as you would find it pointless to discuss what are matters of faith. It's much harder though to not invent a strawman to depict your opponents and acknowledge that although Pogacar is friendly, that happens to be in line with a much more scrutinized, mediatic and public-friendly cycling environment of nowadays.

 

[BubbaChuck]

yes,off course,cause doping is more effective in one day classics.stop it.disciples of riis should have know better.blood thicker than concrete.lmao.

 

[Extinction]

What evidence?
You should be and you can be better that this. There's a degree of crackpot when someone considers that for a rider to be nice, friendly and straightforward suffices to uncover a PR plot paid by oil money.

If you really think - which I'm sure you don't - that I would have Pogar as Jesus Christ you shouldn't even be discussing the issue, as you would find it pointless to discuss what are matters of faith. It's much harder though to not invent a strawman to depict your opponents and acknowledge that although Pogacar is friendly, that happens to be in line with a much more scrutinized, mediatic and public-friendly cycling environment of nowadays.

Again, I've presented evidence that he does not always appear as you describe him: lashing out at a competitor after losing Flanders because he couldn't accept his own shortcoming and the first post-stage interviews with Stefano Rizzati of the recent Giro, in which he came across as rather unlikeable. Now you can pretend these things didn't happen, but that doesn't change the fact that they did and didn't live up to the affable persona we usually get from the "official" Pogacar. Now you can see such behavior as mere drops in style or indicative of a more sincere side of the person that reveals the effort that's put in to demonstrate otherwise. I don't think anything happens by chance in today's pro cycling and especially from a team run by Mauro Gianetti, so I can only presume the latter. And I'm highly suspect of the "public-friendly cycling environment of nowadays", because it seems an artificially constructed image washing ploy. Now when we add the UAE sport washing effect in, which is not conspiracy theory, but unfortunate truth, with Gianetti at the helm, I'm even more sceptical of what I see.

 

[snipeheem]

Again, I've presented evidence that he does not always appear as you describe him: lashing out at a competitor after losing Flanders because he couldn't accept his own shortcoming and the first post-stage interviews with Stefano Rizzati of the recent Giro, in which he came across as rather unlikeable. Now you can pretend these things didn't happen, but that doesn't change the fact that did and didn't live up to the affable persona we usually get from the "official" Pogacar. Now you can see such behavior as mere drops in style or indicative of a more sincere side of the person that reveals the effort that's put in to demonstrate otherwise. I don't think anything happens by chance in today's pro cycling and especially from a team run by Mauro Gianetti, so I can only presume the latter. And I'm highly suspect of the "public-friendly cycling environment of nowadays", because it seems an artificially constructed image washing ploy. Now when we add the UAE sport washing effect in, which is not conspiracy theory, but unfortunate truth, with Gianetti at the helm, I'm even more sceptical of what I see.

After Oropa they start comparing him to Pantani, he got pretty angry at First but the next interview he start praising Pantani and the fans. It was like 5 min between these 2 interviews

 

[Cookster15]

I don't doubt that Pogacar is nice, good natured dude, but he absolutely leans into it for max PR value to build a brand. Guy smiles at the camera any chance he gets.

Fair enough. But it was being suggested Pog isn’t a ‘good natured dude’? Hopefully some proper evidence is submitted to substantiate what currently stands as an unsubstantiated personal opinion. I also don’t put much weight into GC contenders getting ‘testy’ whilst riding grand tours. They are under immense physical and mental pressure and are still human after all.

 

[Rob5091]

Fair enough. But it was being suggested Pog isn’t a ‘good natured dude’? Hopefully some proper evidence is submitted to substantiate what currently stands as an unsubstantiated personal opinion. I also don’t put much weight into GC contenders getting ‘testy’ whilst riding grand tours. They are under immense physical and mental pressure and are still human after all.

It's easy not to get "testy" when you're able to ride off on your own and the rest of the peloton gives up to fight amongst themselves. Infact thinking about it, there could not be a better example of “peloton à deux vitesses”!

 

[Elos Anjos]

Again, I've presented evidence that he does not always appear as you describe him: lashing out at a competitor after losing Flanders because he couldn't accept his own shortcoming and the first post-stage interviews with Stefano Rizzati of the recent Giro, in which he came across as rather unlikeable. Now you can pretend these things didn't happen, but that doesn't change the fact that they did and didn't live up to the affable persona we usually get from the "official" Pogacar. Now you can see such behavior as mere drops in style or indicative of a more sincere side of the person that reveals the effort that's put in to demonstrate otherwise. I don't think anything happens by chance in today's pro cycling and especially from a team run by Mauro Gianetti, so I can only presume the latter. And I'm highly suspect of the "public-friendly cycling environment of nowadays", because it seems an artificially constructed image washing ploy. Now when we add the UAE sport washing effect in, which is not conspiracy theory, but unfortunate truth, with Gianetti at the helm, I'm even more sceptical of what I see.

You didn't say that. You said that his character was a built persona, which is actually absurd if you knew what character means.

Again, it's you and others that see a contradiction between Pogi (or anyone) being likeable and being angry/unlikeable after stressful situations. He's a human being, not some saint and as far as interviews goes, Rui Oliveira (from UAE) said that Pogacar desearves everything.

Blaming a PR stunt masterminded by Gianetti as the cloaking device of his unlikeability is stretching it a lot when there are much more plausible explanations.

I would appreciate the link for those interviews, or better said, your so-called "evidence".

 

[Extinction]

You didn't say that. You said that his character was a built persona, which is actually absurd if you knew what character means.

Again, it's you and others that see a contradiction between Pogi (or anyone) being likeable and being angry/unlikeable after stressful situations. He's a human being, not some saint and as far as interviews goes, Rui Oliveira (from UAE) said that Pogacar desearves everything.

Blaming a PR stunt masterminded by Gianetti as the cloaking device of his unlikeability is stretching it a lot when there are much more plausible explanations.

I would appreciate the link for those interviews, or better said, your so-called "evidence".

I wouldn't go so far as to say a PR stunt, but cultivated projection for the UAE francise doesn't seem to me far fetched. All the pro teams want their riders to project a likeable, clean persona, given the history of doping in the sport. Yet it amazes me how acritical you are and willing to take at face value this image of Saint Pogacar we are all supposed to believe in unquestioningly. I've simply pointed out the contradictions in that facade. It seems for the most part he is a good chap, but I can't buy into this nice-guy image wholesale. And the fact that I have brought into question the 100% genuineness of it all has gotten me ridiculed tells me I'm probably not wrong in doing so.

 

[kingjr]

Pointing out contradictions in a human being is merely stating the obvious. Nobody is 100% genuinely a nice person all the time. That one would seek to play up the positive sides of one's character and keep the negative ones hidden would be called good manners by some.

 

[Extinction]

Pointing out contradictions in a human being is merely stating the obvious. Nobody is 100% genuinely a nice person all the time. That one would seek to play up the positive sides of one's character and keep the negative ones hidden would be called good manners by some.

Yea, but we're in the clinical thread, so any projected image of how we should perceive this rider or that rider is always done from the team's desire of not making it seem like he would ever dope because so nice and hence squeaky clean. But this is obviously BS.

 

[QueenStagiaire]

Yea, but we're in the clinical thread, so any projected image of how we should perceive this rider or that rider is always done from the team's desire of not making it seem like he would ever dope because so nice and hence squeaky clean. But this is obviously BS.

So in the road racing forum we have to pretend everything somebody says is for tactical favors and in the clinic we have to pretend everything revolves around doping? I don‘t think we’d ever get anywhere that way.

 

[AmRacer]

So in the road racing forum we have to pretend everything somebody says is for tactical favors and in the clinic we have to pretend everything revolves around doping? I don‘t think we’d ever get anywhere that way.

Merge them and you got 'Tactical doping'