Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Extinction]

So in the road racing forum we have to pretend everything somebody says is for tactical favors and in the clinic we have to pretend everything revolves around doping? I don‘t think we’d ever get anywhere that way.

This Clinic exists to talk about doping, so yes.

 

[Rob5091]

If you think the fan boy fanaticism in the road racing threads is bad, then imagine it turbo-chargded with doping accusation.

 

[Rob5091]

Philippe Saudé sticks his head above the parapet - I await the "social media" return of fire
https://cyclinguptodate.com/cycling...ch-ex-pro-sensationally-accuses-tadej-pogacar


A comment underneath the article lays out the past -

Well, I thought there'd be some replies but oh my! Normal comment count on articles in cycling up to date is between 0 and 5. Last time I checked this one article had 120 comments. A raw nerve has been touched, I think we can say.

 

[Extinction]

Philippe Saudé sticks his head above the parapet - I await the "social media" return of fire
https://cyclinguptodate.com/cycling...ch-ex-pro-sensationally-accuses-tadej-pogacar


A comment underneath the article lays out the past -

"Soon we will have to put bales of straw on the climbs.”

 

[Elos Anjos]

If you think the fan boy fanaticism in the road racing threads is bad, then imagine it turbo-chargded with doping accusation.

Fan-boy or not, fanaticism works both ways. This thread was derailed from doping allegations to "evidence based" attacks on the character of Pogacar. So I would say they could have happened in the road racing threads.

I wouldn't go so far as to say a PR stunt, but cultivated projection for the UAE francise doesn't seem to me far fetched. All the pro teams want their riders to project a likeable, clean persona, given the history of doping in the sport. Yet it amazes me how acritical you are and willing to take at face value this image of Saint Pogacar we are all supposed to believe in unquestioningly. I've simply pointed out the contradictions in that facade. It seems for the most part he is a good chap, but I can't buy into this nice-guy image wholesale. And the fact that I have brought into question the 100% genuineness of it all has gotten me ridiculed tells me I'm probably not wrong in doing so.

Pogacar doesn't wave a flag saying is a saint just for smiling and giving bottles to kids. It's you, again, making that connection not based on evidence, but on your own bias.

When I saw Pogacar furious in his first RVV or this year in Volta a Catalunya when he hit a moto that was blocking his way I didn't think "ah, that's the real Pogacar!". I just thought that he can be nice, likeable but also that he has an inner fire that drives him to his goals. Just like any champion.

I think we can all agree to move on and that resorting to petty attacks on Pogacar's character is uncalled for.

 

[Extinction]

Fan-boy or not, fanaticism works both ways. This thread was derailed from doping allegations to "evidence based" attacks on the character of Pogacar. So I would say they could have happened in the road racing threads.

Pogacar doesn't wave a flag saying is a saint just for smiling and giving bottles to kids. It's you, again, making that connection not based on evidence, but on your own bias.

When I saw Pogacar furious in his first RVV or this year in Volta a Catalunya when he hit a moto that was blocking his way I didn't think "ah, that's the real Pogacar!". I just thought that he can be nice, likeable but also that he has an inner fire that drives him to his goals. Just like any champion.

I think we can all agree to move on and that resorting to petty attacks on Pogacar's character is uncalled for.

[content deleted]
What other evidence do we need knowing the history of the sport and the men behind the rider? Connect the dots. Evidence of specific doping methods are one thing, circumstanial evidence that doping is occuring entirely another. My issue with deviations from the official persona are based on a series of circumstances that induce me to be highly sceptical of it. The already quoted comment from the article Rob5091 posted well explains why I don't believe Pogacar is clean and therefore why I highly distrust his persona.

"1998 Tour of Romandie, Gianetti quit the race sighting “sickness”. He fell unconscious and was rushed to a hospital. The two doctors who treated Gianetti did several tests on him, but they suspected he had been injected PFCs. PFCs have a tremendous effect of carrying oxygen; it can carry oxygen five times the rate of hemoglobin.

2004-2011 Gianetti and Matxin were team managers of Saunier Duval team. Several riders were sanctioned for doping violations that occurred during his tenure as directeur sportif, including Riccardo Riccò and Juan José Cobo. Another rider, Piepoli, later admitted he was also part of the doping program.

Teammate of GIANETTI, Stéphane Heulot, described the situation in SDP team in 2010: “Doping is so ingrained in certain managers like Gianetti, that they can’t conceive of cycling any other way.”

2011-2014 Gianetti then formed the ‘Geox-TMC’ team: Juan José Cobo won the 2011 Vuelta a España, but in July 2019 he was stripped of this title after being found guilty of doping with EPO. Following this, in July 2014 Dennis Menchov lost his tdf results from 2009, 2010 and 2012 when he was also banned for 2 years for doping.

2014-2016 Gianetti and Matxin were then managers of Lampre-Merida team: In 2014 Diego Ullissi received a suspension for a doping violation. L-M was involved in the Mantova doping investigation by CONI, and 3 riders were implicated, including a 2 year ban for Alessandro Ballan. Michele Scarponi received his second doping suspension whilst at L-M, managed by Gianetti and Matxin. Lampre-Merida got a new sponsor in 2017 and became Team UAE.

Why should we trust these guys that manage Pogacar? 🤔"

 

[pastronef]

I get a kick out of the game that people play here where they think they can tell who is doping and how much by how they act.

check my signature under this post. "'I'm more baffled about drawing the line between acceptable and unacceptable doping depending on sentiments to one or another athlete"

the Pog vs Vingo discussion is about that

 

[Extinction]

[content deleted]

And I have said that Pog is probably mostly a nice chap, but the "nice grandson" routine, as far as representing UAE under Gianetti is concerned, is not to be taken seriously. For here it is an intended distraction from what is really worth considering, namely that we're dealing with another doper. I was responding to your critique of my thoughts not what you may have said about Pogi and doping.

 

[Extinction]

I get a kick out of the game that people play here where they think they can tell who is doping and how much by how they act.

Actually, no. Unfortunately the doping is a given in cycling at this level, with personality traits being more or less conducive to maintaining or harming a clean image.

 

[Tim Cahill]

Giro 2024 : bilan de la domination de Pogacar, par Frédéric Portoleau

Tadej Pogacar a remporté aisément le Tour d'Italie, comme prévu. Dominateur, jamais inquiété pendant 3 semaines et bien aidé par une équipe performante, il a multiplié les numéros en montagne avec 4 victoires d'étapes en solitaire. Il poursuit son incroyable saison 2024, dans une forme...

www-chronoswatts-com.translate.goog

Portoleau's analysis of Pogacar's display in the Giro. A touch below his 2023 TDF level with the caveats that the Giro had 0 bad days and he wasn't tested to the highest of degrees. Though this can be read 2 ways I suppose, he could pick and choose his best moments and wasn't put under the same physical strain, but at the same time had no incentive to produce a higher level.

Not near Basso/Pantani but enough to challenge Armstrong as we thought, though Lance sometimes suffered from similar competition issues. He will need to improve to match Vingegaard's top level and you would think that is the plan for The Tour, I'm sceptical but the people around him are talking a big game so it will be interesting to see.

 

[snipeheem]

Giro 2024 : bilan de la domination de Pogacar, par Frédéric Portoleau

Tadej Pogacar a remporté aisément le Tour d'Italie, comme prévu. Dominateur, jamais inquiété pendant 3 semaines et bien aidé par une équipe performante, il a multiplié les numéros en montagne avec 4 victoires d'étapes en solitaire. Il poursuit son incroyable saison 2024, dans une forme...

www-chronoswatts-com.translate.goog

Portoleau's analysis of Pogacar's display in the Giro. A touch below his 2023 TDF level with the caveats that the Giro had 0 bad days and he wasn't tested to the highest of degrees. Though this can be read 2 ways I suppose, he could pick and choose his best moments and wasn't put under the same physical strain, but at the same time had no incentive to produce a higher level.

Not near Basso/Pantani but enough to challenge Armstrong as we thought, though Lance sometimes suffered from similar competition issues. He will need to improve to match Vingegaard's top level and you would think that is the plan for The Tour, I'm sceptical but the people around him are talking a big game so it will be interesting to see.

He never go for 100% in this giro outside maybe stage 1 so i think his level at Tour will be even better when he goes 100%+

 

[rm2021]

He never go for 100% in this giro outside maybe stage 1 so i think his level at Tour will be even better when he goes 100%+

Considering the shape he showed in the Giro 2024 was below the shape he showed in the Tour 2023, it can be a bit alarming for him, because if he improves and achieves in the Tour 2024, the same shape he showed in the Tour 2023, it will no be sufficient to win the Tour.

 

[Extinction]

Considering the shape he showed in the Giro 2024 was below the shape he showed in the Tour 2023, it can be a bit alarming for him, because if he improves and achieves in the Tour 2024, the same shape he showed in the Tour 2023, it will no be sufficient to win the Tour.

He probably just didn't have to push his Tour 2023 numbers and didn't want to, to remain as fresh as possible for the Tour.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Considering the shape he showed in the Giro 2024 was below the shape he showed in the Tour 2023, it can be a bit alarming for him, because if he improves and achieves in the Tour 2024, the same shape he showed in the Tour 2023, it will no be sufficient to win the Tour.

If Vingegaard doesn't reach his 2023 level, Pogačar's 2023 level will most likely be more than enough to win (unless he totally bonks on one stage again).

 

[Netserk]

He never go for 100% in this giro outside maybe stage 1 so i think his level at Tour will be even better when he goes 100%+

He went 100 % on Foscagno when he attacked, otherwise he wouldn't catch Quintana (on Mottolino he could ease off again).

 

[Rou]

He probably just didn't have to push his Tour 2023 numbers and didn't want to, to remain as fresh as possible for the Tour.

According to Portoleau on Foscagno Pogacar pushed more watts than Vingegaard on Tourmalet last year in the TDF (Tourmalet for Vingo was better than Marie Blanque and Domancy). So this narrative that Pog's TDF level of last year was better than the Giro is just wrong. Pog also admitted that his form in the Tour last year was not so good.

 

[Extinction]

According to Portoleau on Foscagno Pogacar pushed more watts than Vingegaard on Tourmalet last year in the TDF (Tourmalet for Vingo was better than Marie Blanque and Domancy). So this narrative that Pog's TDF level of last year was better than the Giro is just wrong. Pog also admitted that his form in the Tour last year was not so good.

So what was the conflicting idea that Pog's form at the Giro was inferior to that of Tour 2023 based on?

 

[solo80k]

If Vingegaard doesn't reach his 2023 level, Pogačar's 2023 level will most likely be more than enough to win (unless he totally bonks on one stage again).

We should have a certain suspicion about Pog's BadDay, shouldn't we? You can't have too many blood bags (like stage after stage), unless you want to explode. But I was worth trying imo

 

[Krzysztof_O]

He went 100 % on Foscagno when he attacked, otherwise he wouldn't catch Quintana (on Mottolino he could ease off again).

Plus TTs - he went full gas for about 2/3 of the 1st one and probably the whole 2nd.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

We should have a certain suspicion about Pog's BadDay, shouldn't we? You can't have too many blood bags (like stage after stage), unless you want to explode. But I was worth trying imo

Sure, there's definitely a chance that the bad day was clinic related, just like his fast improvement after he was dropped hard on Marie-Blanque.

Whether Visma were being more careful throughout the race or simply got lucky, we don't know. One thing we do know is, that after winning two GTs through quite impressive/ridiculous time trial performances, they haven't really been able to replicate them since. I take that as a good sign, for now, since we don't know that we're going to experience in this year's Tour.

 

[Nick2413]

One thing we do know is, that after winning two GTs through quite impressive/ridiculous time trial performances, they haven't really been able to replicate them since. I take that as a good sign, for now, since we don't know that we're going to experience in this year's Tour.

They haven’t needed to replicate them since Giro/Tour, but if the need arises again surely they’ll do it. You could even argue Kuss had a ridiculous TT in Vuelta, but maybe we just haven’t seen him go all out enough.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

They haven’t needed to replicate them since Giro/Tour, but if the need arises again surely they’ll do it. You could even argue Kuss had a ridiculous TT in Vuelta, but maybe we just haven’t seen him go all out enough.

It was also a different kind of time trial, of course, and positioned earlier in the race. Vingegaard was obviously not in the same shape as during the Tour either.

Jorgenson has performed very well this year, so it will be interesting to see if he's able to do the same in the Tour.

 

[Salvarani]

After Oropa they start comparing him to Pantani, he got pretty angry at First but the next interview he start praising Pantani and the fans. It was like 5 min between these 2 interviews

Could just be him misinterpreting it and then getting an explanation of what the comparison was about, since it was mainly about how they similarly won on Oropa and how they were/are both adored by fans.

Pantani is as much associated to both the "good" side and the "bad" side of him, much to his own doing, but I can see Pog with the adrenalin still running after the stage maybe misunderstanding the question or what the interviewer was saying.

Since a lot backlash towards Vinge and Pog from haters/trolls is "they are going as fast as Pantani and blah blah blah". Im sure he has seen it or heard it and that being compared to him is to say "you are doped up". Who would not get "angry" at thinking someone was saying that to your face without evidence?

Either way, as I said, it probably wasnt the intention from the interviewer and probably Pog got that explained to him. Saying it was because of their entertaining style, attacking and fans cheering him on. Of course, he has no problem after being told that.

Just a misunderstanding. Hilarious to some people playing psychologists and making analysis about his personality. They just sound like haters... hating on the popular kid at school, when in reality it is just their own insecurities coming to light.

 

[Froome]

According to Portoleau on Foscagno Pogacar pushed more watts than Vingegaard on Tourmalet last year in the TDF (Tourmalet for Vingo was better than Marie Blanque and Domancy). So this narrative that Pog's TDF level of last year was better than the Giro is just wrong. Pog also admitted that his form in the Tour last year was not so good.

Honestly, in my opinion it doesn't make sense just count since the start of the attack.

The performance should count since the start of every climb, because if you do the first part in a low pace, obviously the rider will push more watts in the final part of the climb when he attacks, because he is more fresh.

Besides that, the kilojoule during all the stage is an important area.

Nevertheless Pogacar did 6.15 w/kg on Tourmalet during 36 min and 41 s according to Portoleau, and Portoleau didn’t make an estimation for Passo Foscagno, but according to ammattipyoraily/watts in cycling he did 6/6.1 w/kg in 35 minutes, and 6.7/6.8 w/kg after the attack in 13 minutes, similar with the last 4 km on Tourmalet.


He also didn't needed to be strong in the Giro, like in the Tour to win.

I think he was much stronger in the Tour 2023 and he improved last year, if we compare his level between the Tour 2022 and the Tour 2023.

 

[solo80k]

So Pogi will be quite happy with his TdF team. Yates and Almeida should be enough to destroy most of potential rivals with 6.3 W/kg uphill drill. UAE wants revenge, that's for sure. 🤗