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Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

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What evidence? :tearsofjoy:
You should be and you can be better that this. There's a degree of crackpot when someone considers that for a rider to be nice, friendly and straightforward suffices to uncover a PR plot paid by oil money.

If you really think - which I'm sure you don't - that I would have Pogar as Jesus Christ you shouldn't even be discussing the issue, as you would find it pointless to discuss what are matters of faith. It's much harder though to not invent a strawman to depict your opponents and acknowledge that although Pogacar is friendly, that happens to be in line with a much more scrutinized, mediatic and public-friendly cycling environment of nowadays.
Again, I've presented evidence that he does not always appear as you describe him: lashing out at a competitor after losing Flanders because he couldn't accept his own shortcoming and the first post-stage interviews with Stefano Rizzati of the recent Giro, in which he came across as rather unlikeable. Now you can pretend these things didn't happen, but that doesn't change the fact that they did and didn't live up to the affable persona we usually get from the "official" Pogacar. Now you can see such behavior as mere drops in style or indicative of a more sincere side of the person that reveals the effort that's put in to demonstrate otherwise. I don't think anything happens by chance in today's pro cycling and especially from a team run by Mauro Gianetti, so I can only presume the latter. And I'm highly suspect of the "public-friendly cycling environment of nowadays", because it seems an artificially constructed image washing ploy. Now when we add the UAE sport washing effect in, which is not conspiracy theory, but unfortunate truth, with Gianetti at the helm, I'm even more sceptical of what I see.
 
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Again, I've presented evidence that he does not always appear as you describe him: lashing out at a competitor after losing Flanders because he couldn't accept his own shortcoming and the first post-stage interviews with Stefano Rizzati of the recent Giro, in which he came across as rather unlikeable. Now you can pretend these things didn't happen, but that doesn't change the fact that did and didn't live up to the affable persona we usually get from the "official" Pogacar. Now you can see such behavior as mere drops in style or indicative of a more sincere side of the person that reveals the effort that's put in to demonstrate otherwise. I don't think anything happens by chance in today's pro cycling and especially from a team run by Mauro Gianetti, so I can only presume the latter. And I'm highly suspect of the "public-friendly cycling environment of nowadays", because it seems an artificially constructed image washing ploy. Now when we add the UAE sport washing effect in, which is not conspiracy theory, but unfortunate truth, with Gianetti at the helm, I'm even more sceptical of what I see.
After Oropa they start comparing him to Pantani, he got pretty angry at First but the next interview he start praising Pantani and the fans. It was like 5 min between these 2 interviews
 
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I don't doubt that Pogacar is nice, good natured dude, but he absolutely leans into it for max PR value to build a brand. Guy smiles at the camera any chance he gets.
Fair enough. But it was being suggested Pog isn’t a ‘good natured dude’? Hopefully some proper evidence is submitted to substantiate what currently stands as an unsubstantiated personal opinion. I also don’t put much weight into GC contenders getting ‘testy’ whilst riding grand tours. They are under immense physical and mental pressure and are still human after all.
 
Fair enough. But it was being suggested Pog isn’t a ‘good natured dude’? Hopefully some proper evidence is submitted to substantiate what currently stands as an unsubstantiated personal opinion. I also don’t put much weight into GC contenders getting ‘testy’ whilst riding grand tours. They are under immense physical and mental pressure and are still human after all.
It's easy not to get "testy" when you're able to ride off on your own and the rest of the peloton gives up to fight amongst themselves. Infact thinking about it, there could not be a better example of peloton à deux vitesses”!
 
Again, I've presented evidence that he does not always appear as you describe him: lashing out at a competitor after losing Flanders because he couldn't accept his own shortcoming and the first post-stage interviews with Stefano Rizzati of the recent Giro, in which he came across as rather unlikeable. Now you can pretend these things didn't happen, but that doesn't change the fact that they did and didn't live up to the affable persona we usually get from the "official" Pogacar. Now you can see such behavior as mere drops in style or indicative of a more sincere side of the person that reveals the effort that's put in to demonstrate otherwise. I don't think anything happens by chance in today's pro cycling and especially from a team run by Mauro Gianetti, so I can only presume the latter. And I'm highly suspect of the "public-friendly cycling environment of nowadays", because it seems an artificially constructed image washing ploy. Now when we add the UAE sport washing effect in, which is not conspiracy theory, but unfortunate truth, with Gianetti at the helm, I'm even more sceptical of what I see.
You didn't say that. You said that his character was a built persona, which is actually absurd if you knew what character means.

Again, it's you and others that see a contradiction between Pogi (or anyone) being likeable and being angry/unlikeable after stressful situations. He's a human being, not some saint and as far as interviews goes, Rui Oliveira (from UAE) said that Pogacar desearves everything.

Blaming a PR stunt masterminded by Gianetti as the cloaking device of his unlikeability is stretching it a lot when there are much more plausible explanations.

I would appreciate the link for those interviews, or better said, your so-called "evidence".
 
You didn't say that. You said that his character was a built persona, which is actually absurd if you knew what character means.

Again, it's you and others that see a contradiction between Pogi (or anyone) being likeable and being angry/unlikeable after stressful situations. He's a human being, not some saint and as far as interviews goes, Rui Oliveira (from UAE) said that Pogacar desearves everything.

Blaming a PR stunt masterminded by Gianetti as the cloaking device of his unlikeability is stretching it a lot when there are much more plausible explanations.

I would appreciate the link for those interviews, or better said, your so-called "evidence".
I wouldn't go so far as to say a PR stunt, but cultivated projection for the UAE francise doesn't seem to me far fetched. All the pro teams want their riders to project a likeable, clean persona, given the history of doping in the sport. Yet it amazes me how acritical you are and willing to take at face value this image of Saint Pogacar we are all supposed to believe in unquestioningly. I've simply pointed out the contradictions in that facade. It seems for the most part he is a good chap, but I can't buy into this nice-guy image wholesale. And the fact that I have brought into question the 100% genuineness of it all has gotten me ridiculed tells me I'm probably not wrong in doing so.
 
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Pointing out contradictions in a human being is merely stating the obvious. Nobody is 100% genuinely a nice person all the time. That one would seek to play up the positive sides of one's character and keep the negative ones hidden would be called good manners by some.
Yea, but we're in the clinical thread, so any projected image of how we should perceive this rider or that rider is always done from the team's desire of not making it seem like he would ever dope because so nice and hence squeaky clean. But this is obviously BS.
 
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Yea, but we're in the clinical thread, so any projected image of how we should perceive this rider or that rider is always done from the team's desire of not making it seem like he would ever dope because so nice and hence squeaky clean. But this is obviously BS.
So in the road racing forum we have to pretend everything somebody says is for tactical favors and in the clinic we have to pretend everything revolves around doping? I don‘t think we’d ever get anywhere that way.
 
If you think the fan boy fanaticism in the road racing threads is bad, then imagine it turbo-chargded with doping accusation.
Fan-boy or not, fanaticism works both ways. This thread was derailed from doping allegations to "evidence based" attacks on the character of Pogacar. So I would say they could have happened in the road racing threads.
I wouldn't go so far as to say a PR stunt, but cultivated projection for the UAE francise doesn't seem to me far fetched. All the pro teams want their riders to project a likeable, clean persona, given the history of doping in the sport. Yet it amazes me how acritical you are and willing to take at face value this image of Saint Pogacar we are all supposed to believe in unquestioningly. I've simply pointed out the contradictions in that facade. It seems for the most part he is a good chap, but I can't buy into this nice-guy image wholesale. And the fact that I have brought into question the 100% genuineness of it all has gotten me ridiculed tells me I'm probably not wrong in doing so.
Pogacar doesn't wave a flag saying is a saint just for smiling and giving bottles to kids. It's you, again, making that connection not based on evidence, but on your own bias.

When I saw Pogacar furious in his first RVV or this year in Volta a Catalunya when he hit a moto that was blocking his way I didn't think "ah, that's the real Pogacar!". I just thought that he can be nice, likeable but also that he has an inner fire that drives him to his goals. Just like any champion.

I think we can all agree to move on and that resorting to petty attacks on Pogacar's character is uncalled for.
 
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Fan-boy or not, fanaticism works both ways. This thread was derailed from doping allegations to "evidence based" attacks on the character of Pogacar. So I would say they could have happened in the road racing threads.

Pogacar doesn't wave a flag saying is a saint just for smiling and giving bottles to kids. It's you, again, making that connection not based on evidence, but on your own bias.

When I saw Pogacar furious in his first RVV or this year in Volta a Catalunya when he hit a moto that was blocking his way I didn't think "ah, that's the real Pogacar!". I just thought that he can be nice, likeable but also that he has an inner fire that drives him to his goals. Just like any champion.

I think we can all agree to move on and that resorting to petty attacks on Pogacar's character is uncalled for.
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What other evidence do we need knowing the history of the sport and the men behind the rider? Connect the dots. Evidence of specific doping methods are one thing, circumstanial evidence that doping is occuring entirely another. My issue with deviations from the official persona are based on a series of circumstances that induce me to be highly sceptical of it. The already quoted comment from the article Rob5091 posted well explains why I don't believe Pogacar is clean and therefore why I highly distrust his persona.

"1998 Tour of Romandie, Gianetti quit the race sighting “sickness”. He fell unconscious and was rushed to a hospital. The two doctors who treated Gianetti did several tests on him, but they suspected he had been injected PFCs. PFCs have a tremendous effect of carrying oxygen; it can carry oxygen five times the rate of hemoglobin.

2004-2011 Gianetti and Matxin were team managers of Saunier Duval team. Several riders were sanctioned for doping violations that occurred during his tenure as directeur sportif, including Riccardo Riccò and Juan José Cobo. Another rider, Piepoli, later admitted he was also part of the doping program.

Teammate of GIANETTI, Stéphane Heulot, described the situation in SDP team in 2010: “Doping is so ingrained in certain managers like Gianetti, that they can’t conceive of cycling any other way.”

2011-2014 Gianetti then formed the ‘Geox-TMC’ team: Juan José Cobo won the 2011 Vuelta a España, but in July 2019 he was stripped of this title after being found guilty of doping with EPO. Following this, in July 2014 Dennis Menchov lost his tdf results from 2009, 2010 and 2012 when he was also banned for 2 years for doping.

2014-2016 Gianetti and Matxin were then managers of Lampre-Merida team: In 2014 Diego Ullissi received a suspension for a doping violation. L-M was involved in the Mantova doping investigation by CONI, and 3 riders were implicated, including a 2 year ban for Alessandro Ballan. Michele Scarponi received his second doping suspension whilst at L-M, managed by Gianetti and Matxin. Lampre-Merida got a new sponsor in 2017 and became Team UAE.

Why should we trust these guys that manage Pogacar? 🤔"
 
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And I have said that Pog is probably mostly a nice chap, but the "nice grandson" routine, as far as representing UAE under Gianetti is concerned, is not to be taken seriously. For here it is an intended distraction from what is really worth considering, namely that we're dealing with another doper. I was responding to your critique of my thoughts not what you may have said about Pogi and doping.
 
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Portoleau's analysis of Pogacar's display in the Giro. A touch below his 2023 TDF level with the caveats that the Giro had 0 bad days and he wasn't tested to the highest of degrees. Though this can be read 2 ways I suppose, he could pick and choose his best moments and wasn't put under the same physical strain, but at the same time had no incentive to produce a higher level.

Not near Basso/Pantani but enough to challenge Armstrong as we thought, though Lance sometimes suffered from similar competition issues. He will need to improve to match Vingegaard's top level and you would think that is the plan for The Tour, I'm sceptical but the people around him are talking a big game so it will be interesting to see.
 

Portoleau's analysis of Pogacar's display in the Giro. A touch below his 2023 TDF level with the caveats that the Giro had 0 bad days and he wasn't tested to the highest of degrees. Though this can be read 2 ways I suppose, he could pick and choose his best moments and wasn't put under the same physical strain, but at the same time had no incentive to produce a higher level.

Not near Basso/Pantani but enough to challenge Armstrong as we thought, though Lance sometimes suffered from similar competition issues. He will need to improve to match Vingegaard's top level and you would think that is the plan for The Tour, I'm sceptical but the people around him are talking a big game so it will be interesting to see.
He never go for 100% in this giro outside maybe stage 1 so i think his level at Tour will be even better when he goes 100%+
 
He never go for 100% in this giro outside maybe stage 1 so i think his level at Tour will be even better when he goes 100%+
Considering the shape he showed in the Giro 2024 was below the shape he showed in the Tour 2023, it can be a bit alarming for him, because if he improves and achieves in the Tour 2024, the same shape he showed in the Tour 2023, it will no be sufficient to win the Tour.
 
Considering the shape he showed in the Giro 2024 was below the shape he showed in the Tour 2023, it can be a bit alarming for him, because if he improves and achieves in the Tour 2024, the same shape he showed in the Tour 2023, it will no be sufficient to win the Tour.
He probably just didn't have to push his Tour 2023 numbers and didn't want to, to remain as fresh as possible for the Tour.
 
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Considering the shape he showed in the Giro 2024 was below the shape he showed in the Tour 2023, it can be a bit alarming for him, because if he improves and achieves in the Tour 2024, the same shape he showed in the Tour 2023, it will no be sufficient to win the Tour.

If Vingegaard doesn't reach his 2023 level, Pogačar's 2023 level will most likely be more than enough to win (unless he totally bonks on one stage again).
 
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