Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[gregrowlerson]

Dude wins TdF with 1 stage cauae the other guy decides to drop 5 minutes on one stage while most of that Tour is really close.

This meanwhile, We're at 17 WT wins this year. Giro with 10 minutes and 6 stages. Tour with presumably 5 stages and 6+ minutes.

Like dude do you have the slightest ounce of intellectual honesty in you?

I'm surprised to say this, but I'm with Rackham here.

To me the difference is in the level of disruption of preparations. Vingegaard's preparation was far more interrupted this year than Pogacar's was (both this year and last year). Totally impossible to prove of course, but I believe we could be seeing Vingegaard at least five minutes ahead of Pogacar right now without his crash in April, which would make sense about them being on a similar level as GC GT riders (which i still believe them to be; I would still favour Vingegaard fractionally next year in both have perfect preparations), given that Pogacar is attempting the double.

Not that any of what we are seeing makes much sense overall. Whatever these guys got access to a few years ago has seen somewhat steady improvements year by year, and then whatever this new procedure is has been perfected (or close to it) this season, resulting in an abnormal (even by clinic standards) jump in performance (to the point where Vingegaard PDB 2024 is light years ahead of Vingegaard Granon 2022 despite far worse 'normal' preparation).

P.S. I have plenty of posts to catch up on, so apologies if these points have already been made.

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

Lets put a sail on Deadpool, and see if he can win the America's Cup.

 

[Netserk]

This is surely, surely some kind of elaborate pisstake

“Dit dient zijn populariteit niet”: ‘kannibalisme’ van Pogacar stuit Visma-Lease a Bike tegen de borst

Jonas Vingegaard die de genadestoot kreeg in deze Tour? Daar konden ze bij Visma-Lease a Bike mee leven. Dieper trof het kannibalisme van Tadej Pogacar tegenover Matteo Jorgenson hen in het hart. “Veel laat hij niet over voor de rest.”

www.hln.be

“This does not serve his popularity”: Pogacar's 'cannibalism' offends Visma-Lease a Bike​

Jonas Vingegaard who got the coup de grace in this Tour ? Visma-Lease a Bike could live with that. Tadej Pogacar 's cannibalism towards Matteo Jorgenson hit them more deeply in the heart. "He doesn't leave much for the rest."

Pathetic.

Teddy is bonkers this season, but circumstances make him look more outrageous. Visma-LAB don't seem to be behind on the doping front, they just had a shitton of bad luck this year.

 

[BullsFan22]

This is surely, surely some kind of elaborate pisstake

“Dit dient zijn populariteit niet”: ‘kannibalisme’ van Pogacar stuit Visma-Lease a Bike tegen de borst

Jonas Vingegaard die de genadestoot kreeg in deze Tour? Daar konden ze bij Visma-Lease a Bike mee leven. Dieper trof het kannibalisme van Tadej Pogacar tegenover Matteo Jorgenson hen in het hart. “Veel laat hij niet over voor de rest.”

www.hln.be

“This does not serve his popularity”: Pogacar's 'cannibalism' offends Visma-Lease a Bike​

Jonas Vingegaard who got the coup de grace in this Tour ? Visma-Lease a Bike could live with that. Tadej Pogacar 's cannibalism towards Matteo Jorgenson hit them more deeply in the heart. "He doesn't leave much for the rest."

This after not doing anything with Vingo at any point in the stage? Pogačar is a racer, not a philosopher.

 

[gregrowlerson]

Everyone today (party driven by the media) wants to see historic achievements all the time.

Someone like Carlos Alcaraz wins his 4th Major title and everyone is like "CAN HE WIN 25?!?!"

It's gross and obnoxious.

Nobody is encouraged to be happy in the moment.

 

[gregrowlerson]

Oh sure Pog is lunacy alright. I'm not arguing about that. The number they've done on the sport is even more ridiculous, i.e. 'modern fans' think the sport is like F1 & it's totally normal to have the same riders & teams winning every major race. They're loving it & Pog feeds the 'Netflix' aspect of this modern cycling.

But all I've seen in this Tour is once again Jumbots & UAE's all over the road. In today's stage, Politt wrecked the peloton, meanwhile Kelderman & Jorgenson wrecked the break. The rest are just passengers & constantly playing catch-up, despite them all posting career best numbers.

UAE = Visma & Visma= UAE. It's why you won't hear a single complaint from either team when it comes to medical matters. Both repeat the mantra about nutritionbiketech again, again & again.



It's an arms race.

Vingegaard will be back next season with all guns blazing & then Pogi fans will say he's 'pas normal'. It's a never-ending cycle.

Or maybe Jorgenson will jump a few levels & provide a challenge himself. It's anyone's guess really.

I agree with the vast majority of what you have been saying (I believe that with equal preparations Pogacar and Vingegaard are very hard to split as gc riders), but surely whatever new thing that it is which is out there, must be available throughout the majority of the peloton. Landa's improvements post covid are probably similar to the mutants, even though age wise he should be in decline. So I think it's a question of who responds best, and therefore if it is worth pressing the button (whatever that button happens to be). I will quote your favourite rider.

"Why not, eh?"

It wouldn't surprise me that much if a Ineos or Bora rider for example was contending again next year (not sure what is going on with Hindley, but he's not this bad), but perhaps you need to get most of everything else right first before it is worth the risk to go thermonuclear.

Very interested to see if Ayuso goes elsewhere as I think he could be a strong contender, even next year.

 

[Monoxidator]

Ayuso to Visma would be hilarious. Pog fans would turn purple with rage and death threats would ensue.

 

[SHAD0W93]

This is surely, surely some kind of elaborate pisstake

“Dit dient zijn populariteit niet”: ‘kannibalisme’ van Pogacar stuit Visma-Lease a Bike tegen de borst

Jonas Vingegaard die de genadestoot kreeg in deze Tour? Daar konden ze bij Visma-Lease a Bike mee leven. Dieper trof het kannibalisme van Tadej Pogacar tegenover Matteo Jorgenson hen in het hart. “Veel laat hij niet over voor de rest.”

www.hln.be

“This does not serve his popularity”: Pogacar's 'cannibalism' offends Visma-Lease a Bike​

Jonas Vingegaard who got the coup de grace in this Tour ? Visma-Lease a Bike could live with that. Tadej Pogacar 's cannibalism towards Matteo Jorgenson hit them more deeply in the heart. "He doesn't leave much for the rest."

Visma shouldn’t have been running their mouth or following Pogacar everywhere he went the last 3 years.

 

[Brullnux]

If Nibali can win San Remo, so can Vingegaard. He can certainly win Lombardia and LBL as well.

Nibali didn't have to go against Van der Poel and Pogacar.

Nibali also a different rider, much more instinctive, which I think suited him for one day races compared to Vingegaard.

Re Lombardia and LBL – not against Pogacar (and Remco).

 

[Savant12]

So, is Pog better than last year or does a weaker Vingo just make him look this good?

 

[Monoxidator]

So, is Pog better than last year or does a weaker Vingo just make him look this good?

He’s improved about 5% yoy. 13% since 2022 I think someone said.

 

[AnotherArmChair]

So, is Pog better than last year or does a weaker Vingo just make him look this good?

I think Pog is much better this year and I don't draw that conclusion from the numbers but from the fact he won the Giro and he wins the Tour and he looks like he is out for a Sunday ride. Not tired in the least. That has not been done since Pantani and we all know what he needed to do that

Yes the sport has improved and all climbing records are contested by most top 10 riders now ...However these guys are on their hands and knees after races, they are tired and they are many many minutes behind Pogacar

There are somethings that are rotten and not in the state of Denmark and There are more things in heaven and earth and Pog knows them all

Remember 10 years ago+ there were endless discussions on how some PED help some riders more than others ...due to their physiology

Maybe UAE have found something that isnt banned per se (YET) but I have no doubt they have found something and it really suits Pog so much so he cant slow down

 

[Froome]

He’s improved about 5% yoy. 13% since 2022 I think someone said.

I think he improved more than that. Maybe 7/8%, going from 6.3 to 6.8 w/kg.

If he improves 7/8%, and Vingegaard does the same numbers of last year, or improved just 1/2 % in a good day compared with last year, then obviously he is screwed comparing to the % the current peloton are improving, especially the top riders.

How much guys like Pollit, Jorgenson or Gee improved this year?

Remco evenepoel is doing currently 6.4 w/kg during 40 minutes. How much % he improved? Certainly a big %.

 

[SHAD0W93]

I think he improved more than that. Maybe 7/8%, going from 6.3 to 6.8 w/kg.

If he improves 7/8%, and Vingegaard does the same numbers of last year, or improved just 1/2 % in a good day compared with last year, then obviously he is screwed comparing to the % the current peloton are improving, especially the top riders.

How much guys like Pollit, Jorgenson or Gee improved this year?

Remco evenepoel is doing currently 6.4 w/kg during 40 minutes. How much % he improved? Certainly a big %.

To be fair, you did say a miracle was going to happen this Tour.

 

[Nick2413]

He’s improved about 5% yoy. 13% since 2022 I think someone said.

The era of marginal gains is certainly long gone.

Has anyone posted one of the charts of w/kg at various durations updates for 2024 yet?

 

[saunaking]

I miss the post race images of riders collapsed, their chest heaving, soigneur shooing journalists away so the rider can 'get some air'. Now the aliens sprint it out and then slap each others ass and call their wives

 

[LesDiablesRouges]

I think he improved more than that. Maybe 7/8%, going from 6.3 to 6.8 w/kg.

If he improves 7/8%, and Vingegaard does the same numbers of last year, or improved just 1/2 % in a good day compared with last year, then obviously he is screwed comparing to the % the current peloton are improving, especially the top riders.

How much guys like Pollit, Jorgenson or Gee improved this year?

Remco evenepoel is doing currently 6.4 w/kg during 40 minutes. How much % he improved? Certainly a big %.

Remco is improved but nowhere as much as you think. He was pulling 6.5 w/kg at the tour of Norway in 2022. for 30 minute 23 second climb and did the last half of the climb at 6.85. w/kg

 

[Saint Unix]

yeah i still remember how many times Quintana 'animated the race' by attacking, looking back and immediately giving up

To be fair, you'd sit down and shut up as well if The Eggbeater of Doom was chasing you down.

 

[Can Racing Fan]

The era of marginal gains is certainly long gone.

Has anyone posted one of the charts of w/kg at various durations updates for 2024 yet?

i always found that statement hilarious , if it was just ''marginal gains'' at Team Sky Juice it would have taken decades for Froome to go from the nothing rider he was to winnings tours lol

 

[Floatstick]

i always found that statement hilarious , if it was just ''marginal gains'' at Team Sky Juice it would have taken decades for Froome to go from the nothing rider he was to winnings tours lol

No, they brought their own mattresses to the hotels.

 

[JosefK]

So, is Pog better than last year or does a weaker Vingo just make him look this good?

He seems to be the strongest he's ever been, by quite a bit, this year. I've enjoyed watching him race--it's hard not to--but I find myself being more of a fan during times when he seems slightly vulnerable, possibly human. This year, he seems to be growing more invulnerable by the day, the week, the month ... In this year's TDF, stage 11 seemed like a possible turning point that revived lingering questions about what would happen in the third week. But instead, he just dropped nukes at the end of the second week, and then launched MIRVs in week 3.

 

[fbjim]

To be fair, you'd sit down and shut up as well if The Eggbeater of Doom was chasing you down.

what i find funny about the sky years in retrospect is that the time gaps were often close, but the races didn't feel close at all. like i remember one year where Uran was like 90 seconds back entering the last mountain stages and you knew that there was absolutely no way in hell he was winning. even this year people were (maybe coping) saying that Third Week Vingo was going to blow the race up for five minutes. or 2022 when Pogacar hadn't dropped Vingegaard once in the mountains but people still were thinking he had a Romme-Colombier attack in him.

You definitely see that in 2020 when, in retrospect it seems like Jumbo/Roglic were still acting like they were in the era where the best team could easily hold a 60 second lead for the last week, and ended up being completely wrong.

 

[Sciatic]

what i find funny about the sky years in retrospect is that the time gaps were often close, but the races didn't feel close at all. like i remember one year where Uran was like 90 seconds back entering the last mountain stages and you knew that there was absolutely no way in hell he was winning. even this year people were (maybe coping) saying that Third Week Vingo was going to blow the race up for five minutes. or 2022 when Pogacar hadn't dropped Vingegaard once in the mountains but people still were thinking he had a Romme-Colombier attack in him.

You definitely see that in 2020 when, in retrospect it seems like Jumbo/Roglic were still acting like they were in the era where the best team could easily hold a 60 second lead for the last week, and ended up being completely wrong.

Interesting perspective, though this year has felt more sky like because in the mountains the GC grp might be whittled to 8-10 but 3 are UAE.

 

[fbjim]

to an extent yeah but that happened with Visma a bit too last year. even moreso because Visma actually had a rider in Kuss who was strong enough to stay with and police the GC attacks when they got going

 

[noob]

To not take Jonas collapsed lung and Wout nearly collapsed lung into account when comparing Vlab to UAE is either dishonest or stupid. This is not just about UAE. These two teams clearly hates each other enough to create newer methods every year to break the others back. So much darkness in them both.

It's ironic that as far as I'm concerned the biggest leaps might even be those farther behind Tadej and Jonas in GC. Place 3, 4 and 5 all have made astounding improvements this year. Remco, Almeida, Landa. Astounding improvement. (Last year it was Yates.)

Rogla and Hindley going backwards in comparison.