Question Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

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Sep 22, 2020
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Roglic was the strongest rider in the race the very next day
He finished same time as Pogacar on stage 18 and 19, after gaining 15 second on Pogacar on stage 17 (before the motor doping check)

But look, this thread is about Pogacar not Roglic, I don't really think Roglic was motor doping, and I actually think Pogacar was holding back a bit on the mountains after suspiciously too good numbers in previous stages.

I think the motor doping incident and expulsion of their director might have had a impact on psychology and morale, but it still isn't a good look.

None of that compares with Pogacar's obviously "too good to be true" performance in the TT
 
Aug 3, 2016
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(...) Roglič clearly did not have a top day in the ITT. (...)
George Bennett emphatically disagreeing with the narrative that Roglic had some sort of an off day in the ITT. Emphasizing that this result is all about TPs strength, not PRs weakness: "Actually people talking about Primoz had a bad time trial. He did the best time trial he's ever done, numerically. He did an insane time trial. Bigger numbers, a lot bigger, than he pushed in the Vuelta."
at 13:19:
 
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George Bennett emphatically disagreeing with the narrative that Roglic had some sort of an off day in the ITT. Emphasizing that this result is all about TPs strength, not PRs weakness: "Actually people talking about Primoz had a bad time trial. He did the best time trial he's ever done, numerically. He did an insane time trial. Bigger numbers, a lot bigger, than he pushed in the Vuelta."
at 13:19:
Wow, that is really interesting! I didn’t think he had a bad day, just thought it wasn’t his best. That speaks a lot to the rides of Dumo and WvA. Thanks for posting that, should add a lot of clarity to the conversation.
 
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Wow, that is really interesting! I didn’t think he had a bad day, just thought it wasn’t his best. That speaks a lot to the rides of Dumo and WvA. Thanks for posting that, should add a lot of clarity to the conversation.
Unless riders or teams are going to be completely transparent in sharing riders’ “numbers” I’m not giving a lot of credence to these statements (how many times have we heard this during this year’s Tour?) about numbers that were good or “better than when he did So-and-so race.”
 
I wouldn't be surprised if this is true. He performed significantly better in comparison to Dumoulin than he previously had, for example:
  • 2017: 57 seconds behind Dumoulin over 31km in WC (1.8s/km)
  • 2018: 72 seconds behind Dumoulin over 31km in the Tour (2.3s/km)
  • 2020: 35 seconds behind Dumoulin over 36km in the Tour (.9s/kim)
Also, he performed better compared to a selection of challengers from last year's Giro:
  • 2019: 17 seconds behind Caruso, 9 seconds behind Bilbao over 17km in the Giro
  • 2020: 33 seconds ahead of Caruso, 84 seconds ahead of Bilbao over 36km in the Tour
In counterpoint, he did worse compared to Cavagna, though not significantly so.
  • 2019: 27 seconds ahead of Cavagna in Vuelta
  • 2020: 3 seconds ahead of Cavagna in Tour
 
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Aug 3, 2016
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Unless riders or teams are going to be completely transparent in sharing riders’ “numbers” I’m not giving a lot of credence to these statements (how many times have we heard this during this year’s Tour?) about numbers that were good or “better than when he did So-and-so race.”
Yes, and George Bennett probably isn't qualified to report in detail about Roglics numbers in different races anyway.
But that's not even the main point here. My takeaway is that this is likely a genuine description of the common feeling at TJV after the first disappointment and shock has settled over a beer: "In the end I was like, what do you do, that guy is just too fast. And once we sorta accepted that, it's hard to be too disappointed about someone just being way better than you."

(This is a "chatting with friends podcast" with Sam Bewley and Dan Jones that he has been doing for a couple of months now. Talking cycling and all sorts of other random nonsense, kinda entertaining at times. While it certainly is not a private conversation, they still talk relatively openly and freely, not trying to bring some PR or message across. They're regularly saying stuff they really wouldn't say into a more official microphone, joking that very few will listen to it anyway. So if Bennett thought that Roglic just blew it in the TT, ruining all the work the team has put into it, he would probably tell the other guys in private but not on the podcast. But on the other hand I'm sure it's also not the platform for him to give one of those pathetic speeches in support of your fallen leader even if you actually think otherwise. So I guess these statements above are in fact quite authentic and I think that's remarkable.)
 
Wow, that is really interesting! I didn’t think he had a bad day, just thought it wasn’t his best. That speaks a lot to the rides of Dumo and WvA. Thanks for posting that, should add a lot of clarity to the conversation.
And to Richie Porte's phenomenal result. To be fair, as other posters have noted, Porte paced a bit slower than Dumo on the flat but then really cranked on the climb. And he was consistently one of the strongest climbers in this Tour.
 
Unless riders or teams are going to be completely transparent in sharing riders’ “numbers” I’m not giving a lot of credence to these statements (how many times have we heard this during this year’s Tour?) about numbers that were good or “better than when he did So-and-so race.”
Even if they shared their numbers they could never see Pogacar's numbers because he climbed without a potentiometer. That's like throwing the gun to the sea. LOL.
 
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I wouldn't be surprised if this is true. He didn't significantly better in comparison to Dumoulin than he previously had, for example:
  • 2017: 57 seconds behind Dumoulin over 31km in WC (1.8s/km)
  • 2018: 72 seconds behind Dumoulin over 31km in the Tour (2.3s/km)
  • 2020: 35 seconds behind Dumoulin over 36km in the Tour (.9s/kim)
Also, he did better compared to a selection of challengers from last year's Giro:
  • 2019: 17 seconds behind Caruso, 9 seconds behind Bilbao over 17km in the Giro
  • 2020: 33 seconds ahead of Caruso, 84 seconds ahead of Bilbao over 36km in the Tour
In counterpoint, he did worse compared to Cavagna, though not significantly so.
  • 2019: 27 seconds ahead of Cavagna in Vuelta
  • 2020: 3 seconds ahead of Cavagna in Tour
I also think Roglic is a bit overhyped as an ITT'er. He's very good, among the top 10, but i rate him only a tiny bit above Campenaerts/Küng, and below Dumoulin, van Aert, Evenepoel, Dennis, and by now probably Ganna as well. So, being a but slower than van Aert and Dumoulin, especially in the third week, his performance didn't seem that bad.

I think it was especially his body language that was showing something was wrong. The way his helmet was all wrong, his elbows out, terror on his face... So while he probably could have done a better ITT given the circumstances, it's clear that Pogacar "won" it, and not so much Roglic who "lost" it.
 
Roglic doing a better ITT than 2019 Vuelta numerically isn't all that mutually exclusive with underperforming as the bar has been raised so much, and they specifically compared the flat parts of the ITT, where Roglic was like 35 seconds behind.

Apart from that, I fully agree the reason he lost was the insanity of Pogacars ITT. If you'd have told Jumbo Roglic would finish 35s off Dumoulin they'd have been at the champgain in no time flat.
 
George Bennett emphatically disagreeing with the narrative that Roglic had some sort of an off day in the ITT. Emphasizing that this result is all about TPs strength, not PRs weakness: "Actually people talking about Primoz had a bad time trial. He did the best time trial he's ever done, numerically. He did an insane time trial. Bigger numbers, a lot bigger, than he pushed in the Vuelta."
at 13:19:
This again would indicate that we are much closer to 2000 than some would want to believe. Roglic won multiple GT TTs. Last year one in the Giro and one in the Vuelta. Both with convincing margins. Especially in the Giro he had a huge gap to other contenders. So, Bennett tells us that he did even better than that but was without a chance? I already doubt that we had clean fields in GTs in the previous years but this year suddenly a lot of guy put on additional Watts as if it were nothing? Would be interested in Bennetts explanation. For me, the solution is unfortunately the lack of testing because of COVID. Climbing times were through the roof as well.
 
This again would indicate that we are much closer to 2000 than some would want to believe. Roglic won multiple GT TTs. Last year one in the Giro and one in the Vuelta. Both with convincing margins. Especially in the Giro he had a huge gap to other contenders. So, Bennett tells us that he did even better than that but was without a chance? I already doubt that we had clean fields in GTs in the previous years but this year suddenly a lot of guy put on additional Watts as if it were nothing? Would be interested in Bennetts explanation. For me, the solution is unfortunately the lack of testing because of COVID. Climbing times were through the roof as well.
Pogs massive improvement from Col de la Loze to the time trial suggests to me he took something during the race rather than that this massive performance improvement was solely due to lack of testing. There were also some through the roof climbing performances in February, predominantly from Quintana and Adam Yates.

It smells like something new in the peloton. But then it could also be something that's already been used a short while that is now being refined like happened with EPO.

Performance wise we're definitely back to the early 2000s. And I guess the fact that it was 'only' the Peyresourde record that got smashed and PdbF record isn't associated with doping that people pay less attention.

Maybe I have a good reason to want to see Alp d'Huez and Mont Ventoux back after all
 
Pogs massive improvement from Col de la Loze to the time trial suggests to me he took something during the race rather than that this massive performance improvement was solely due to lack of testing. There were also some through the roof climbing performances in February, predominantly from Quintana and Adam Yates.

It smells like something new in the peloton. But then it could also be something that's already been used a short while that is now being refined like happened with EPO.

Performance wise we're definitely back to the early 2000s. And I guess the fact that it was 'only' the Peyresourde record that got smashed and PdbF record isn't associated with doping that people pay less attention.

Maybe I have a good reason to want to see Alp d'Huez and Mont Ventoux back after all
Good point(s).
 
Reactions: Red Rick
Pogs massive improvement from Col de la Loze to the time trial suggests to me he took something during the race rather than that this massive performance improvement was solely due to lack of testing. There were also some through the roof climbing performances in February, predominantly from Quintana and Adam Yates.

It smells like something new in the peloton. But then it could also be something that's already been used a short while that is now being refined like happened with EPO.

Performance wise we're definitely back to the early 2000s. And I guess the fact that it was 'only' the Peyresourde record that got smashed and PdbF record isn't associated with doping that people pay less attention.

Maybe I have a good reason to want to see Alp d'Huez and Mont Ventoux back after all
Meanwhile, ASO has a good reason to look out for new climbs
 
Sep 22, 2020
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7W/kg is a number that will provoke controversy and leave questions open for quite some time.
I also can’t overlook man Mauro Gianetti, a doped Italian, who makes Pogacar's success doubt practically everyone who follows cycling at least a little.

We saw such a suspicious freshness on the ITT 2 years ago with the Sky team (Froom, Thomas) and to this day they have not been given it because anti-doping control has outdated methods.
Every layman can see on TV what the difference was between Pogacar and the other competitors after 3 weeks of racing.

Looking at the ascent records at: La Planche des Belles Filles;
2020:5,9 km@8,5%---16:10---average speed 21.90 km/h (Tadej Pogacar)-RECORD
2019:5,9 km@8,5%---17:30---average speed 20.23 km/h (Thomas Pidcock) -Strava
2019:7,0 km@8,7%---20:02---average speed 20.97 km/h (Geraint Thomas)-finish at 1139m
2017:5,9 km@8,5%---16:12---average speed 21.85 km/h (Fabio Aru)
2014:5,9 km@8,5%---16:44---average speed 21.16 km/h (Vincenzo Nibali)
2012:5,9 km@8,5%---16:20---average speed 21.67 km/h (Chris Froome)


So, Pogacar was, including chang of bike, way faster than anyone who has ever competed on this slope.


As I have mentioned before , because of radio problems, UAE could not control it (him), as they wanted him to slow down a bit, as he was flying too much , as they didn’t want him to make such a supernatural performance and that big time gap to Tom D. and Wout V.A., which raises now a lot of suspicions and speculation all over the world., and also in Slovenia, where there is a mass of opinions-posts across the board, that this performance stinks a lot.
 
This again would indicate that we are much closer to 2000 than some would want to believe. Roglic won multiple GT TTs. Last year one in the Giro and one in the Vuelta. Both with convincing margins. Especially in the Giro he had a huge gap to other contenders. So, Bennett tells us that he did even better than that but was without a chance? I already doubt that we had clean fields in GTs in the previous years but this year suddenly a lot of guy put on additional Watts as if it were nothing? Would be interested in Bennetts explanation. For me, the solution is unfortunately the lack of testing because of COVID. Climbing times were through the roof as well.
The prologue in the Giro he won, but to claim he won the other ITT in the Giro with convincing margin, considering we're talking about the actual "performance", it should be noted that he would have lost that ITT if not for this clusterfuck:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmRxAjf2uGI
 
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Looking at the ascent records at: La Planche des Belles Filles;
2020:5,9 km@8,5%---16:10---average speed 21.90 km/h (Tadej Pogacar)-RECORD
2019:5,9 km@8,5%---17:30---average speed 20.23 km/h (Thomas Pidcock) -Strava
2019:7,0 km@8,7%---20:02---average speed 20.97 km/h (Geraint Thomas)-finish at 1139m
2017:5,9 km@8,5%---16:12---average speed 21.85 km/h (Fabio Aru)
2014:5,9 km@8,5%---16:44---average speed 21.16 km/h (Vincenzo Nibali)
2012:5,9 km@8,5%---16:20---average speed 21.67 km/h (Chris Froome)

So, Pogacar was, including chang of bike, way faster than anyone who has ever competed on this slope.
And Roglic was slower than Tom Pidcock.
So thank you George Bennett for your precious insights, but no, this was not Roglic best TT ever.

Which has obviously nothing to do with Pogacar performance's level of insanity. But has a lot to do with how credible pro athletes can be when talking about their performances.
 
I think it's very difficult to compare only the climbing times without all the circumstances, like which occasion was it, what did he ride before, was it a tt or in the peloton, equipment...
It's a very good hint, but nothing as absolute as it looks. (This is not an argument in one direction or the other, I just wanted to point that out, because of course I would love it to be different.)
 
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And Roglic was slower than Tom Pidcock.
So thank you George Bennett for your precious insights, but no, this was not Roglic best TT ever.

Which has obviously nothing to do with Pogacar performance's level of insanity. But has a lot to do with how credible pro athletes can be when talking about their performances.
And Roglic completely emptied the tank in the Vuelta ITT. Who says he could've done a 17'30 PdbF there?
 
7W/kg is a number that will provoke controversy and leave questions open for quite some time.
I also can’t overlook man Mauro Gianetti, a doped Italian, who makes Pogacar's success doubt practically everyone who follows cycling at least a little.

We saw such a suspicious freshness on the ITT 2 years ago with the Sky team (Froom, Thomas) and to this day they have not been given it because anti-doping control has outdated methods.
Every layman can see on TV what the difference was between Pogacar and the other competitors after 3 weeks of racing.

Looking at the ascent records at: La Planche des Belles Filles;
2020:5,9 km@8,5%---16:10---average speed 21.90 km/h (Tadej Pogacar)-RECORD
2019:5,9 km@8,5%---17:30---average speed 20.23 km/h (Thomas Pidcock) -Strava
2019:7,0 km@8,7%---20:02---average speed 20.97 km/h (Geraint Thomas)-finish at 1139m
2017:5,9 km@8,5%---16:12---average speed 21.85 km/h (Fabio Aru)
2014:5,9 km@8,5%---16:44---average speed 21.16 km/h (Vincenzo Nibali)
2012:5,9 km@8,5%---16:20---average speed 21.67 km/h (Chris Froome)


So, Pogacar was, including chang of bike, way faster than anyone who has ever competed on this slope.


As I have mentioned before , because of radio problems, UAE could not control it (him), as they wanted him to slow down a bit, as he was flying too much , as they didn’t want him to make such a supernatural performance and that big time gap to Tom D. and Wout V.A., which raises now a lot of suspicions and speculation all over the world., and also in Slovenia, where there is a mass of opinions-posts across the board, that this performance stinks a lot.
Its insane the 2012 pace only had 4 following and one was a random one day special climb from Taamarae, I bet if this was a MTF this year we would have 25 riders until the final 800m sprint.
 
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As I have mentioned before , because of radio problems, UAE could not control it (him), as they wanted him to slow down a bit, as he was flying too much , as they didn’t want him to make such a supernatural performance and that big time gap to Tom D. and Wout V.A., which raises now a lot of suspicions and speculation all over the world., and also in Slovenia, where there is a mass of opinions-posts across the board, that this performance stinks a lot.
is there much susoicion? is the general Slovenian public bothered about that? any newspaper writing about that? on forums? remember that people on forums like us are not "mass" we are a veeeery small part of the public. is there really a high number of Slovenian normal sport fans really bothered about suspicion ?
 

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