Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Red Rick]

Imagine being the first Tour winner from your country but being greeded with suspicion cause it was that thermonuclear.

But then Roglic was second and I think he's more liked/been around longer?

 

[Mayomaniac]

Imagine being the first Tour winner from your country but being greeded with suspicion cause it was that thermonuclear.

But then Roglic was second and I think he's more liked/been around longer?

Bjarne is probably like: "I know that feel bro."

 

[topcat]

Imagine being the first Tour winner from your country but being greeded with suspicion cause it was that thermonuclear.

But then Roglic was second and I think he's more liked/been around longer?

Tbh I find Pogacar more likeable. He attacks, he's young and has a winning smile. He was not afraid to lose like Roglic was. The top 3 are juiced to their eye balls.

 

[red_flanders]

And Roglic was slower than Tom Pidcock.
So thank you George Bennett for your precious insights, but no, this was not Roglic best TT ever.

Which has obviously nothing to do with Pogacar performance's level of insanity. But has a lot to do with how credible pro athletes can be when talking about their performances.

You're basing that conclusion on what you expect him to do versus Tom Pidcock? Do we know the context for Pidcock's time? Was it in a race, after 5 cols, a training ride where he just went for it? Do we know for sure exactly what we'd expect Pidcock to do in a TT versus Roglič at the end of 3 weeks?

 

[armchairclimber]

Ross Tucker's take

TOUR DE FRANCE WRAP: Pogacar's Race-Winning TT Analysis / Cadence vs Power / VAM Explainer | The Real Science of Sport Podcast

Slovenian Tadej Pogacar's sensational penultimate stage performance up the famed Les Planche de Belle Filles, on his way to his overall win, will go down in legend as one of most dramatic moments in Tour de France history. Prof. Ross Tucker and Mi...

play.acast.com

 

[neevosh]

I've only been following cycling regularly since 2012, so I don't have all the baggage associated with the peak doping years. I've never seriously questioned the performance in cycling, but watching Pocacar absolutely dominate that ITT, it left me with an icky feeling.

Here is a good breakdown of Pogacar's performance as well as a comparison to Roglic and others. It's estimated that Pogacar did 6.9 w/kg up the climb, and that's after an estimated 6 w/kg for the 40 min proceeding.

Le Tour: Breaking down if Jumbo blew it & Quintana's doping chatter

Digesting Jumbo's collapse, Pogacar's comeback and Quintana's potential doping problem

beyondthepeloton.substack.com

 

[SafeBet]

You're basing that conclusion on what you expect him to do versus Tom Pidcock? Do we know the context for Pidcock's time? Was it in a race, after 5 cols, a training ride where he just went for it? Do we know for sure exactly what we'd expect Pidcock to do in a TT versus Roglič at the end of 3 weeks?

It was a 140 km stage in Tour Alsace, where Pidcock beat some fellow u23 riders by a few seconds. Top9 was all within 30 seconds from the winner.

 

[iceblink]

Ross Tucker's take

TOUR DE FRANCE WRAP: Pogacar's Race-Winning TT Analysis / Cadence vs Power / VAM Explainer | The Real Science of Sport Podcast

Slovenian Tadej Pogacar's sensational penultimate stage performance up the famed Les Planche de Belle Filles, on his way to his overall win, will go down in legend as one of most dramatic moments in Tour de France history. Prof. Ross Tucker and Mi...

play.acast.com

I generally find, that whatever Tucker concludes, in big controversial sporting incidents, you should conclude the opposite

 

[BlueRoads]

I've only been following cycling regularly since 2012, so I don't have all the baggage associated with the peak doping years. I've never seriously questioned the performance in cycling, but watching Pocacar absolutely dominate that ITT, it left me with an icky feeling.

Here is a good breakdown of Pogacar's performance as well as a comparison to Roglic and others. It's estimated that Pogacar did 6.9 w/kg up the climb, and that's after an estimated 6 w/kg for the 40 min proceeding.

Le Tour: Breaking down if Jumbo blew it & Quintana's doping chatter

Digesting Jumbo's collapse, Pogacar's comeback and Quintana's potential doping problem

beyondthepeloton.substack.com

A very good overview, which firms my opinion that Pogacar was not the only one doped here, but propably doped as f**. Quite sad. I can't find another explanation.

 

[Koxx]

Tbh I find Pogacar more likeable. He attacks, he's young and has a winning smile. He was not afraid to lose like Roglic was. The top 3 are juiced to their eye balls.

So wrong. In Slovenia Roglic in double more likeable then Pogacar.
In fact Roglic is widely respected and admired by the most.

The sad part of this ITT is now coming up.
Pogacar has drove a 10min interval with 6.75w/kg and two more 10min intervals with around 6.5 w /kg.
With such power you can attack every stage with a mountain finish line , and nobody would be able to follow you. There is no team to be able to do that. This data are pure science fiction, period.

The fact that Pogacar did not have a computer (for the first time since I watched him on the Strava) is a good tactic of concealing of data.
And as Tadej himself already stated, he had radio problems, and he then simply went with full power till the finish line.
Therefore, everyone in the UAE began to come out quickly with a variety of explanations, from that he have a supernatural regeneration, becasue he is so young, to that he have a super blood, and so on....

Sorry if this link was already posted, but it's worth of reading:

We won’t get fooled again?

 

[armchairclimber]

I generally find, that whatever Tucker concludes, in big controversial sporting incidents, you should conclude the opposite

Ah, you think Pog is clean then?

 

[iceblink]

Ah, you think Pog is clean then?

lol, no apparently he can "metabolise his own lactate, reoxidise it elsewhere and use it as a fuel source - it's genetic", so Pog's a lucky freak apparently

( listen at 27:30 on the podcast , it's hilarious )

 

[topcat]

So wrong. In Slovenia Roglic in double more likeable then Pogacar.
In fact Roglic is widely respected and admired by the most.

I find Pog more likeable. As in me, someone who likes attacking risk taking cycling. I don't know what's going on in Slovenia.

 

[BlueRoads]

I find Pog more likeable. As in me, someone who likes attacking risk taking cycling. I don't know what's going on in Slovenia.

I absolutely agree - only, where's the risk when you know you are by miles stronger?

 

[pastronef]

So wrong. In Slovenia Roglic in double more likeable then Pogacar.
In fact Roglic is widely respected and admired by the most.

you joined 2 days ago, and only posted on the Gianetti-Pogacar thread. I dont want to look like a stalker but post after post I seem to understand you prefer Roglic, and you dislike Pogacar very much.
the fact you say the Slovenian public is very suspicious of Pogacar sound strange.

 

[BlueRoads]

you joined 2 days ago, and only posted on the Gianetti-Pogacar thread. I dont want to look like a stalker but post after post I seem to understand you prefer Roglic, and you dislike Pogacar very much.
the fact you say the Slovenian public is very suspicious of Pogacar sound strange.

It's understandable though and I think someone else from Slovenia said something like that. Does not mean Roglic is really nicer, I have no idea about that, but obviously people had more time to warm with Roglic and have watched documentations and read books and articles, whereas Pogacar has been relatively unknown (in comparison). Also he does not have a baby. Babies and animals always have that effect.

 

[DaveJones2]

lol, no apparently he can "metabolise his own lactate, reoxidise it elsewhere and use it as a fuel source - it's genetic", so Pog's a lucky freak apparently

( listen at 27:30 on the podcast , it's hilarious )

I haven't listened to the podcast you are referring to but what you describe is called the Cori cycle and is a fundamental metabolic pathway present in normal human physiology. I had no idea anyone was looking at variation between individual athletes though.

 

[armchairclimber]

lol, no apparently he can "metabolise his own lactate, reoxidise it elsewhere and use it as a fuel source - it's genetic", so Pog's a lucky freak apparently

( listen at 27:30 on the podcast , it's hilarious )

Back to athletic physiology school for you. Just because he describes an energy pathway doesn't mean that he is giving Pog a free pass. If you are used to Ross Tucker's analysis then you should be reading between the lines by now.

 

[iceblink]

I haven't listened to the podcast you are referring to but what you describe is called the Cori cycle and is a fundamental metabolic pathway present in normal human physiology. I had no idea anyone was looking at variation between individual athletes though.

Yeah, they hijack well-known good science ideas to make them sound credible, it's bollocks, if you listen from ~32:30 they talk about Carapaz, it's just fuckin' nonsense science about the FORMER GIRO WINNER, not having the same performance ability as the "genetically superior" Pogacar

 

[PeterB]

you joined 2 days ago, and only posted on the Gianetti-Pogacar thread. I dont want to look like a stalker but post after post I seem to understand you prefer Roglic, and you dislike Pogacar very much.
the fact you say the Slovenian public is very suspicious of Pogacar sound strange.

I do not find it strange if attitude in Slovenia is like that. Imagine you are convinced for a week or two that Roglic will become the next national sporting hero. Everything around him and his fight for yellow is likeable and you are certain the whole world will applaud his success. And then sudenly the whole story changes - still it's the Slovenian rider who won, but this time the world asks inconvenient questions instead of praising achievements of your small country. No wonder if Slovenians feel that something is wrong...

 

[iceblink]

Back to athletic physiology school for you. Just because he describes an energy pathway doesn't mean that he is giving Pog a free pass. If you are used to Ross Tucker's analysis then you should be reading between the lines by now.

WTF?!!!

Are you his mum? The guy is giving Pogacar a free pass with the shittiest science analysis possible - it's shameful.

 

[pastronef]

I do not find it strange if attitude in Slovenia is like that. Imagine you are convinced for a week or two that Roglic will become the next national sporting hero. Everything around him and his fight for yellow is likeable and you are certain the whole world will applaud his success. And then sudenly the whole story changes - still it's the Slovenian rider who won, but this time the world asks inconvenient questions instead of praising achievements of your small country. No wonder if Slovenians feel that something is wrong...

sport fans in general are glad a guy from their nation won. ok some prefer this some prefer the other one. but they are not used, like us on here, to fllow watts, performances, climbing times etc.
but Koxx makes it look like general public are sudden experts and find his comeback in the TT very suspicious for Pogacar. well it´s cycling. the guy won 3 stage at the Vuelta last year, white jersey and 3rd GC. I understand Koxx is probably a Roglic´s fan, so fine, it surely hurts seing your fav rider beaten, that´s understandable. I dont think the public is turning their backs to Pogacar though, nor vioicing their concern as strongly as Koxx implies

ps, check Jeroen Swart´s nice words about Roglic (Jeroen is one of the UAE´s physicians)

@JeroenSwart
I’ve seen many comments about people wanting Tadej to win because they don’t like Primoz. Every time I’ve spoken to Primoz he has been the nicest guy I can imagine. His wife is there at the races cheering him on wildly. He deserves to win as much as anyone. Stop the negativity.

 

[JosephK]

It's understandable though and I think someone else from Slovenia said something like that. Does not mean Roglic is really nicer, I have no idea about that, but obviously people had more time to warm with Roglic and have watched documentations and read books and articles, whereas Pogacar has been relatively unknown (in comparison). Also he does not have a baby. Babies and animals always have that effect.

Great points. Roglic became a national sports hero in Slovenia. The sports public often/usually has a hard time of it when an upstart dethrones the reigning hero. Like in golf over a half century ago, Arnold Palmer was beloved in the U.S., a winner of the biggest tournaments, but then this young and somewhat overweight kid fresh out of college comes along and starts beating Arnie in major tournaments. There was a lot of dislike of Jack Nicklaus for a while because he dethroned Arnie. But after a while, the tables usually turn again and the upstart who was disliked becomes the hero, and so on.

Edit: Okay, I'm not sure how great my analogy is, as no one ever suggested Jack Nicklaus got jacked up on roids or HGH before tournaments to pull out the wins.

 

[IndianCyclist]

The perf of Pogacar is once in a century. The only reference point is Merckx who took yellow, Mountains while being this young and the second youngest rider to win TDF. This is a one in 20000 event and it is difficult to believe. The team and the rider have to release data to show that those are credible performances. The upper limit of human data remains unbounded after all similar to height or weight.
If he is doing something that is detectable, it would be caught in the weeks or months after. If he does not repeat the perf then it would be clear that this TDF performance was not realistic. If he goes thermonuclear for next 3 years, it is likely that he would get popped.

 

[macbindle]

No data...he didnt have a computer with him.

Just a coincidence, I'm sure.