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Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

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Ripper

Ripper

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kingjr said:
His coach has been asked this question, this was his response. He doesn't say he doesn't know it, but he doesn't provide it either, which is just plain weird to me. Maybe it'll come with that study he's talking about, but I wouldn't get my hopes up.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1308116208823140353
View: https://twitter.com/doctorinigo/status/1308116208823140353
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The coaches sometimes just sound like sophisticated fanboys. Contador - excellent lactate clearance! Armstrong - excellent efficiency and lost weight. Indurain - huge heart and stroke volume.

I have no doubt any of these individuals are off the charts, it's what put them off the charts that's in question.
 
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triglavsky

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roundabout said:
Roglic did look like he could have ridden away from the rest on the gravel after Glieres, but I guess the gains may not have been worth the effort.
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Agreed. I remember I felt really uneasy about him not even trying but rationalized it to better play it safe, they have everything under control.
Roglič won 2 tour stages like that afaik (minus the gravel), 2017, 2018.
 
armchairclimber

armchairclimber

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To be fair to Pog, I had him in last years CQ Manager league. I'd picked him because of his stellar performances as a 19 year old. I remember being amazed watching him at the Algarve where his climbing was outstanding. But the most impressive thing about his win (impressive in itself for a 20 year old newbie) was his performance in the ITT, where I had expected him, as a lightweight, to ship some time. On a flattish 20k course he only lost 17 seconds to Kung and finished ahead of the likes of Politt. Looking back a year further, his performance as a 19 year old at the Tour of Slovenia was just as impressive. One would expect some physical maturation as well as much improved preparedness this year so his ITT victory is maybe not quite as surprising as it seemed at first. However, the margin of that victory .... that's another matter.
 
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Le breton

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Ripper said:
The coaches .... Armstrong - excellent efficiency and lost weight.

I have no doubt any of these individuals are off the charts, it's what put them off the charts that's in question.
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When I first read Ed Coyle's infamous paper about Armstrong's evolution over the years I thought it was an Armstrong indictment because it showed L.A.'s gross efficiency was exactly the same as that of most endurance cyclist, about 22.5%, the same as that of Boardman for example.
 
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Le breton

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armchairclimber said:
...
  1. I'm guessing that Ross Tucker's grasp of science exerxcise physiology is some way ahead of yours
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Yesterday I listened to the first half of Tucker's 3rd podcast and was extremely disappointed by his lack of understanding of the way wattage estimates are done by serious people like Portoleau. He goes as far as basing his point of view on Ferrari's kindergarten level VAM method.
I am very disappointed because in general I like what he writes in particular about physiology and a few other topics.
 
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armchairclimber

armchairclimber

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Le breton said:
Yesterday I listened to the first half of Tucker's 3rd podcast and was extremely disappointed by his lack of understanding of the way wattage estimates are done by serious people like Portoleau. He goes as far as basing his point of view on Ferrari's kindergarten level VAM method.
I am very disappointed because in general I like what he writes in particular about physiology and a few other topics.
Click to expand...

I don't think he gave a point of view really. And really you could spend hours debating the best methodology for calculating power. I thought he was just keeping it simple for a broad audience. I thought it was pretty clear that he was implying that the performance was outlandish whatever the power, simply by the fact that he trounced the best TT riders and broke 4 climbing records.
 
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DFA123

DFA123

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Red Rick said:
"We have a reference point for Van Aert now. It seems like Pogacar beat him by thrice the margin the World ITT champion and pursuit world record holder did"
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Oh look, it's the goalposts being shifted again . Last week, the fact that Pogacar could ride the same time as Dumoulin on the flatter section was being presented as strong evidence of it being a literally unbelievable ride.

Well, given Dumoulin's showing at the WC, it doesn't look like strong evidence any more. Turns out that Dumoulin's much fabled WC watts, don't actually translate into a very good performance these days.

And so now the goalposts are being shifted to WVA. Conveniently ignoring the fact that there was a mountain in the Tour TT, changing how the course was ridden. Which is why no-one really used him as an example in the first place.
 
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Pogafroome

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Ripper said:
The coaches sometimes just sound like sophisticated fanboys. Contador - excellent lactate clearance! Armstrong - excellent efficiency and lost weight. Indurain - huge heart and stroke volume.

I have no doubt any of these individuals are off the charts, it's what put them off the charts that's in question.
Click to expand...
Some rumours saying that is 91 (vo2 max of pogacar).
 
huangho

huangho

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Oh my, oh my...

TBH I'm one of those thinking that it can't be real to have such a difference from fresh TTers against a 3 week hard punished body (Remember big Tom and WvA faces in the hot seat), and also by "that" margin. And looking the world's TT competition it is fair to say that is highly suspicious. Also the Quintanagate operation seemed as a smokescreen to cover something bigger.

But AFAIK the only suspicious stage was that TT, because the rest of the tour he had good results, but nothing out of the standard... Am I right?? Also in the prior stage he seemed defeated by MAL and Rogla. I'm not saying he is clean, but remembering Armstrong he was completely berserk, and this guy was not.

Or there is something new that cannot be seen on a biological passport and only appears on certain days?? That's bizarre...
 
Rackham

Rackham

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huangho said:
Oh my, oh my...

TBH I'm one of those thinking that it can't be real to have such a difference from fresh TTers against a 3 week hard punished body (Remember big Tom and WvA faces in the hot seat), and also by "that" margin. And looking the world's TT competition it is fair to say that is highly suspicious. Also the Quintanagate operation seemed as a smokescreen to cover something bigger.

But AFAIK the only suspicious stage was that TT, because the rest of the tour he had good results, but nothing out of the standard... Am I right?? Also in the prior stage he seemed defeated by MAL and Rogla. I'm not saying he is clean, but remembering Armstrong he was completely berserk, and this guy was not.

Or there is something new that cannot be seen on a biological passport and only appears on certain days?? That's bizarre...
Click to expand...

Unless I'm mistaken, blood transfusions when done right are absolutely undetectable. I'm not saying that's what happened in the Tour with Podacar, but a good old fashioned blood bag the night before the TT & voilà, God mode enabled.
 
Escarabajo

Escarabajo

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huangho said:
Oh my, oh my...

TBH I'm one of those thinking that it can't be real to have such a difference from fresh TTers against a 3 week hard punished body (Remember big Tom and WvA faces in the hot seat), and also by "that" margin. And looking the world's TT competition it is fair to say that is highly suspicious. Also the Quintanagate operation seemed as a smokescreen to cover something bigger.

But AFAIK the only suspicious stage was that TT, because the rest of the tour he had good results, but nothing out of the standard... Am I right?? Also in the prior stage he seemed defeated by MAL and Rogla. I'm not saying he is clean, but remembering Armstrong he was completely berserk, and this guy was not.

Or there is something new that cannot be seen on a biological passport and only appears on certain days?? That's bizarre...
Click to expand...
In my opinion his whole Tour was a complete Red Flag. Some records, his recovery, his TT.
 
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saganftw

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Rackham said:
Unless I'm mistaken, blood transfusions when done right are absolutely undetectable. I'm not saying that's what happened in the Tour with Podacar, but a good old fashioned blood bag the night before the TT & voilà, God mode enabled.
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nah you dont do 6,9W in last stage of TdF just on blood bag, unless its a blood bag with nanomachines :D

it surely must be one of the best athletic performances of all time, when even Dumoulin admits he can never reach that level, sounds like a lot more than oil change
 
Escarabajo

Escarabajo

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saganftw said:
nah you dont do 6,9W in last stage of TdF just on blood bag, unless its a blood bag with nanomachines :D

it surely must be one of the best athletic performances of all time, when even Dumoulin admits he can never reach that level, sounds like a lot more than oil change
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I agree. This is not just a blood bag. Because there are other cyclists who are doing it and he obliterated all of them. Remember Ricco and Piepoli.
 
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