Question Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

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WTF?!!!

Are you his mum? The guy is giving Pogacar a free pass with the shittiest science analysis possible - it's shameful.
WTF?!!!

Are you his mum? The guy is giving Pogacar a free pass with the shittiest science analysis possible - it's shameful.
  1. No he isn't giving him a free pass at all. He simply explains what is being said by Pogacar's team and why they (San Millan and Jeroen Swart) think that explains his outlandish performances.
  2. I'm guessing that Ross Tucker's grasp of science exerxcise physiology is some way ahead of yours
  3. New member ... hmmm Are you Roglic's Mum?
You're going on ignore.
 
One thing Tucker did do was call out Pogacar's team to release the data from his tests which showed him to have an elevated capacity for lactate clearance/buffering. It would also be helpful to know his tested VO2 Max, seeing as Tucker was making calculations based upon Pogacar's VAM on the climb segment of PdBF (would need to be very high 80s).
 
May 21, 2011
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Never posted here before, though have followed Clinic forum for many years. I thought odds on Pog getting three jerseys looked terribly skewed on Friday night. Unpredictable looking TT and less than a minute in it. His performances in 19 were pretty exceptional, esp that 40k ride at Vuelta. Looked easily strongest GC guy to me this TdF, all things considered. And nothing to lose. And young riders in ascendent of late (at least amongst men), for reasons that are not clear. Was worth a punt, not something I do often. Margin Of victory seems impossible, I have to agree. But I have, long ago, accepted that every cyclist will do anything he and his team can to achieve success if they think they can get away with it. Doesn’t really bother me. It’s all about money/prestige for them and entertainment for us in the end. I, on the other hand, just cycle for fun and fitness. What strikes me on this forum, and in more informed circles generally, is how little actual science behind performance enhancement is known. In this state of ignorance, I have to assume JV had access to similar methods as EUA. Can anyone suggest what specific substance could contribute to Saturday‘s outlier?
 
One thing Tucker did do was call out Pogacar's team to release the data from his tests which showed him to have an elevated capacity for lactate clearance/buffering. It would also be helpful to know his tested VO2 Max, seeing as Tucker was making calculations based upon Pogacar's VAM on the climb segment of PdBF (would need to be very high 80s).
His coach has been asked this question, this was his response. He doesn't say he doesn't know it, but he doesn't provide it either, which is just plain weird to me. Maybe it'll come with that study he's talking about, but I wouldn't get my hopes up.

View: https://twitter.com/doctorinigo/status/1308116208823140353
 
Sep 22, 2020
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you joined 2 days ago, and only posted on the Gianetti-Pogacar thread. I dont want to look like a stalker but post after post I seem to understand you prefer Roglic, and you dislike Pogacar very much.
the fact you say the Slovenian public is very suspicious of Pogacar sound strange.

I'm aware, that as a newcomer here, many of you take certain distance from my posts.
Regarding the Slovenian public, it is all true, even if it sounds weird.
Of course most in public are happy with the achievements and winning of TDF.
But as said, the shadow of doubt is very strong and it's present more and more every day on all main media portals (including national one) , under the comments which are highly rated. And now even more, as Pogacar will not ride the ITT on W.Champ. Even Pogacar parents, when they flew to Paris, his mother said on that flight, that she is happy, but also so sad for Roglic, and it was very obvious, that she was very uncomfortable.

I do admit, that I respect more Roglic than Pogacar,
Simply because the Roglic have very specific charisma and very positive character, so is his psychological profile, which is outstanding, despite that, he is for many a renegade in this sport.

But not only that, his calmness,, modesty, even in words (in public), which many journalists resent, as he is not full of bla,bla talking, his fair-play, and above all, his sharp focus on the goal. " I just want to ride", he said.

I used to be an athlete for more than 22 years, of which 10 years as a professional and I was an Olympian, so I do have my own point of experience on endurance and limits of human body and a wide aspects of approaches to regeneration. I know very well how deep dark professional sport is, and how this goes, that in the end of day it 's still on the edge of allowed, but the problem occurs, when someone dares to crosses (unwritten role) that thin line to much.

I have been following very few other athletes and their achievements, but among those few, Roglic with all already descriptive characteristics is for me one of the greatest.


I apologize for OT post.
 
Dec 9, 2019
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He doesn't have any polls except a general feeling. And what he wrote is mostly true.

There are 2 sayings going around that aren't accusing Pogi/uae as dopers:
1 - instead of 2 winners we got a winner and a loser. and the loser is the one "everyone" was cheering on.
2 - Pogi won the tour, Roglič won the hearts of Slovenians.

Lets not forget Roglič is the one that let us even dream about an achievement this big. This is THE biggest sporting success for Slovenia. And it really does not feel like it. Roglič has the Hollywood story "everyone" was hoping would come true. 3 years ago Slovenia won the Eurobasket and EVERYONE and I mean EVERYONE was talking about that match and win. I mostly kept my mouth shut this week and let me tell you... very few people even mention the race and the ones that do its mostly to say something like the 2 things I wrote above.
Like 2 that were asking me stuff the last 3 weeks or commenting on the race(stage) the day before havent said a WORD. Nothing... like the race didnt even happen. Like cycling does not exist for them.


Also would like to add there were minimal comments about doping for Roglič ever since I started watching/following pro cycling again. Roglič performances were/are believable.
Now comments are filled with doping accusations or doubting the numbers. And its aimed straight at Pogi/UAE but before it was mostly "you guys dont really think they are on bread and water only do you??".
On the other hand... a lot of Slovenians are really salty (including me) right now so thats for sure the source where most of the comments come from.
 
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I don't really see how Roglic's performances are any more believable than Pogacar's. I guess it can be hard to look at these things objectively if you are a big fan of one rider, but Roglic did absolutely destroy everyone else in this Tour, by an even greater margin than Pogacar destroyed him.
At what point did Roglic put 1'20 into everyone in the disciplin he wasn't even known for after struggling to hang on 3 days before?
 
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He didn't. Not really sure what that has to do with my point though.
Seems pretty clear to me. Roglic was incrementally better than everyone throughout the race, though he was better rose than Pogacar here, worse than MAL there, etc. Pogacar was just as good or better throughout the race (only behind before ITT due to flat tire) and then was head and shoulders above everyone on the ITT. Roglic was never head and shoulders above everyone at any point in the race.
 
Seems pretty clear to me. Roglic was incrementally better than everyone throughout the race, though he was better rose than Pogacar here, worse than MAL there, etc. Pogacar was just as good or better throughout the race (only behind before ITT due to flat tire) and then was head and shoulders above everyone on the ITT. Roglic was never head and shoulders above everyone at any point in the race.
Not really. Roglic dominated the race for 19 stages; he looked in complete control. Then put in his usual poor 3rd week TT, getting outclimbed by about 12 other guys. Pogacar was more up and down, sometimes great sometimes just hanging on - kind of what you expect from a young super talent.

And it's not just this race. Roglic showed a lot less potential in his 1st year in a World Tour team than Pogacar did. His transformation has been more extreme.

Imo, both are very suspicious. But it's just fanboy logic to be throwing insinuations against Pogacar while claiming Roglic is believable.
 
I don't really think Roglic is clean. I'm inclined to say he's doping, too. But his performances have not gone out of the roof. So he might be clean, or he might be doping and not having the same success with it or not being as talented as Pogacar in the first place. Who knows. But Pogacar's performance, especially in the time trial, was so over the limit, that I simply don't find any other solution than doping anymore. He's in areas where, as far as I know, no clean rider has ever been. And I don't believe in super-super-super-talents. In 95% of all cases, when they appear in any but a complete niche sport (where this might be due to a small pool of athletes) at one point they get exposed. There are some, like Usain Bolt, who have never been exposed, but the circumstances make me personally sure they were doped, too.
Me, I would not like to make this "Pogacar vs. Roglic".
In any case it would be really good to have as much data as possible for Pogacar. Maybe there can be an explanation found in that. I don't expect it, but well, could be.
 
Not really. Roglic dominated the race for 19 stages; he looked in complete control. Then put in his usual poor 3rd week TT, getting outclimbed by about 12 other guys. Pogacar was more up and down, sometimes great sometimes just hanging on - kind of what you expect from a young super talent.

And it's not just this race. Roglic showed a lot less potential in his 1st year in a World Tour team than Pogacar did. His transformation has been more extreme.

Imo, both are very suspicious. But it's just fanboy logic to be throwing insinuations against Pogacar while claiming Roglic is believable.
Roglic was shepherded by a bulletproof team and looks very solid and stoic on a bike, but if you look at his performances, he didn't dominate the way previous Tour winners dominated at least 1 or 2 stages, nor did he dominate the way Pogacar dominated the ITT. Agree, he looked like a cyborg aesthetically, though.

If you review Rog vs. Pog head-to-head, if Pog was highly variable, so was Rog. Rog gapped Pog by 17 seconds once and outsprinted him at the line once. Pog gapped Rog by 40 seconds once and outsprinted him once. The rest of the time they finished together.

No fanboy logic here. I am not saying Roglic is clean, more just contextualizing the discussion. I'm not saying Pogacar is definitely dirty either, but let's call a spade a spade. That was a massive outlier of a performance, whether you're comparing to his own performances within the Tour or previous events or compared to other ITTs or to other previous winners or to previous ascents of that climb.
 
He doesn't have any polls except a general feeling. And what he wrote is mostly true.

There are 2 sayings going around that aren't accusing Pogi/uae as dopers:
1 - instead of 2 winners we got a winner and a loser. and the loser is the one "everyone" was cheering on.
2 - Pogi won the tour, Roglič won the hearts of Slovenians.

Lets not forget Roglič is the one that let us even dream about an achievement this big. This is THE biggest sporting success for Slovenia. And it really does not feel like it. Roglič has the Hollywood story "everyone" was hoping would come true. 3 years ago Slovenia won the Eurobasket and EVERYONE and I mean EVERYONE was talking about that match and win. I mostly kept my mouth shut this week and let me tell you... very few people even mention the race and the ones that do its mostly to say something like the 2 things I wrote above.
Like 2 that were asking me stuff the last 3 weeks or commenting on the race(stage) the day before havent said a WORD. Nothing... like the race didnt even happen. Like cycling does not exist for them.


Also would like to add there were minimal comments about doping for Roglič ever since I started watching/following pro cycling again. Roglič performances were/are believable.
Now comments are filled with doping accusations or doubting the numbers. And its aimed straight at Pogi/UAE but before it was mostly "you guys dont really think they are on bread and water only do you??".
On the other hand... a lot of Slovenians are really salty (including me) right now so thats for sure the source where most of the comments come from.
Triglav, nice choice of nickname for a Slovenian.
I appreciated Koxx reply, I apologize for my "stalker" attitude :grinning:

about the minimal comments about Roglic, well, maybe in Slovenia, but you and Koxx maybe missed the investigation by some French journalists on motor and thernal camera image of Roglic wheel at Strade Bianche (that didnt come to nothing luckily, because it was a journalistic stunt and just the anti-doping trolls on twitter were excited about that)
but the Aderlass investigation with direct links ad admissions about Milan Erzen raised many questions and suspicions about Roglic too.
 
Reactions: triglavsky
Not really. Roglic dominated the race for 19 stages; he looked in complete control. Then put in his usual poor 3rd week TT, getting outclimbed by about 12 other guys. Pogacar was more up and down, sometimes great sometimes just hanging on - kind of what you expect from a young super talent.

And it's not just this race. Roglic showed a lot less potential in his 1st year in a World Tour team than Pogacar did. His transformation has been more extreme.

Imo, both are very suspicious. But it's just fanboy logic to be throwing insinuations against Pogacar while claiming Roglic is believable.
yes, I dont want to offend Koxx and Triglav, but there's some kind of nuance of that. but I can understand, sometimes we are biased fans, and well, that's why we follow the sport and get excited about it.
 
I don't really think Roglic is clean. I'm inclined to say he's doping, too. But his performances have not gone out of the roof. So he might be clean, or he might be doping and not having the same success with it or not being as talented as Pogacar in the first place. Who knows. But Pogacar's performance, especially in the time trial, was so over the limit, that I simply don't find any other solution than doping anymore. He's in areas where, as far as I know, no clean rider has ever been. And I don't believe in super-super-super-talents. In 95% of all cases, when they appear in any but a complete niche sport (where this might be due to a small pool of athletes) at one point they get exposed. There are some, like Usain Bolt, who have never been exposed, but the circumstances make me personally sure they were doped, too.
Me, I would not like to make this "Pogacar vs. Roglic".
In any case it would be really good to have as much data as possible for Pogacar. Maybe there can be an explanation found in that. I don't expect it, but well, could be.
Yes, so back to the title of the thread, TP ...
ridiculous!
 

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