• The Cycling News forum is still looking to add volunteer moderators with. If you're interested in helping keep our discussions on track, send a direct message to @SHaines here on the forum, or use the Contact Us form to message the Community Team.

    In the meanwhile, please use the Report option if you see a post that doesn't fit within the forum rules.

    Thanks!

Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

Page 26 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.
Toggle sidebar Toggle sidebar
gerundium

gerundium

Jan 1, 2012
886
229
10,380
Visit site
Valanga said:
Apparently TJV shared Roglic power numbers during the tour, including his TT.

www.ad.nl

Hoe Primoz Roglic de Tour kon verliezen

Primoz Roglic zou de Tour gaan winnen. Eén probleem: hij won niet. Was het omdat hij bezweek of omdat Tadej Pogacar toverde met zijn benen? Het antwoord ligt verscholen in de cijfers. Jumbo-Visma deelde de vermogensgegevens van Roglic’ Tour.
www.ad.nl www.ad.nl



Conclusion from Thijs Zonneveld:
  1. Roglic was strong all tour, as strong as he's ever been. Consistent level.
  2. Roglic did a strong TT, except for the last 1,5k where he basically gave up.
  3. He estimates Pogacars TT performance to be between 6,1 and 6,5 w/kg for an hour. Which is crazy strong, the performance of the tour and possibly of the decade.
Click to expand...

Well we now have more information. Roglic didn't completely capitulate in the TT. still pushing 6 W/kg on the Planche and 5.7 W/kg over pretty much an hour.

For Pogacar to take the time he did the article estimates based on this data (and dumoulins, which is not published) that Pogacar had to have been pushing 6.1 to 6.5 over the entire TT.

That probably means close to the 7 W/kg barrier on the planche.

I don't believe anymore that even a double blood bag could lead to a huge boost like this.
 
J

joske47

Sep 17, 2012
3
0
8,510
Visit site
gerundium said:
Well we now have more information. Roglic didn't completely capitulate in the TT. still pushing 6 W/kg on the Planche and 5.7 W/kg over pretty much an hour.

For Pogacar to take the time he did the article estimates based on this data (and dumoulins, which is not published) that Pogacar had to have been pushing 6.1 to 6.5 over the entire TT.

That probably means close to the 7 W/kg barrier on the planche.

I don't believe anymore that even a double blood bag could lead to a huge boost like this.
Click to expand...

https://www.ad.nl/tour-de-france/hoe-primoz-roglic-de-tour-kon-verliezen~a6436400/
 
roundabout

roundabout

Jun 7, 2010
19,196
3,090
28,180
Visit site
gerundium said:
Well we now have more information. Roglic didn't completely capitulate in the TT. still pushing 6 W/kg on the Planche and 5.7 W/kg over pretty much an hour.

For Pogacar to take the time he did the article estimates based on this data (and dumoulins, which is not published) that Pogacar had to have been pushing 6.1 to 6.5 over the entire TT.

That probably means close to the 7 W/kg barrier on the planche.

I don't believe anymore that even a double blood bag could lead to a huge boost like this.
Click to expand...


Why would it be 7 W/kg on the Planche? I have my doubts that Roglic is also so aerodynamically superior going uphill at 20 km/h on a road bike.
 
BlueRoads

BlueRoads

Jan 4, 2020
6,327
7,735
16,180
Visit site
ppanther92 said:
Ok, so 3 Slovenes in the top 4 of LBL. Quite remarkable for a country with a population of 2m.
Click to expand...

It is a statistical peculiarity that raises my suspicions as well. Sometimes of course there are hotspots in sports because there are more scouts in one place, better youth structures, a sport is extremely popular... but I can't see any of these explanations here.
But I don't know enough about cycling in Slovenia.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ppanther92
P

Parker

Mar 4, 2011
3,346
451
14,580
Visit site
42x16ss said:
I fear some of Pantani's climbing records will be genuinely threatened soon, and not just by Pogačar. Can't wait for the explanations for it.
Click to expand...


I have seen this sort of thing over and over again on this forum. Predictions that records and times will be beaten. And when these Pantani times aren't beaten in the next few years, will you promise to start a thread titled "I 46x16ss am an idiot"? And then we can use that thread discuss how people who desperately want doping in the sport make predictions that never materialise, because this has been going on for a decade now.
 
42x16ss

42x16ss

May 23, 2009
10,213
1,398
25,680
Visit site
Parker said:
I have seen this sort of thing over and over again on this forum. Predictions that records and times will be beaten. And when these Pantani times aren't beaten in the next few years, will you promise to start a thread titled "I 46x16ss am an idiot"? And then we can use that thread discuss how people who desperately want doping in the sport make predictions that never materialise, because this has been going on for a decade now.
Click to expand...
You DO know that Dumoulin is second only to Pantani on a number of climbs after his 2017 Giro d'italia efforts right? He's just one example.

Believe it or not, I actually DON'T want to be right, and this belief that accepting doping occurs somehow makes you less of a fan is an overly simplistic view.
 
gerundium

gerundium

Jan 1, 2012
886
229
10,380
Visit site
roundabout said:
Why would it be 7 W/kg on the Planche? I have my doubts that Roglic is also so aerodynamically superior going uphill at 20 km/h on a road bike.
Click to expand...

roglic pushed 5.7 on the entire TT and 6.05 on the planche. so around 0.35 w/kg higher on the planche than the TT average. the article states an estimated average watts of Pogacar between 6.1 and 6.5. if we take a same distribution as an assumption and the middle of the range i end up with a 6.3 w/kg average on the TT and around 6.65 W/kg average on the planche.

It's a rather simple approach but gives some indication of the watts pushed by Pog, and you are right 7 w/kg was a bit too high when i did the mental math quickly in my head.
 
DFA123

DFA123

Nov 7, 2010
8,820
245
17,880
Visit site
gerundium said:
roglic pushed 5.7 on the entire TT and 6.05 on the planche. so around 0.35 w/kg higher on the planche than the TT average. the article states an estimated average watts of Pogacar between 6.1 and 6.5. if we take a same distribution as an assumption and the middle of the range i end up with a 6.3 w/kg average on the TT and around 6.65 W/kg average on the planche.

It's a rather simple approach but gives some indication of the watts pushed by Pog, and you are right 7 w/kg was a bit too high when i did the mental math quickly in my head.
Click to expand...
I don't think you can extrapolate from one rider's W/kg like that in a TT. Aerodynamics is such an important factor, especially on the flatter parts. But also even on the climb when its 20km/h+.

I wouldn't be surprised if Pog averaged similar w/kg to Roglic over the whole course; around 5.7. His position looked so much more locked in and smooth compared with both Roglic and Dumoulin.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Cookster15 and brownbobby
brownbobby

brownbobby

Sep 27, 2017
2,203
49
5,530
Visit site
DFA123 said:
I don't think you can extrapolate from one rider's W/kg like that in a TT. Aerodynamics is such an important factor, especially on the flatter parts. But also even on the climb when its 20km/h+.

I wouldn't be surprised if Pog averaged similar w/kg to Roglic over the whole course; around 5.7. His position looked so much more locked in and smooth compared with both Roglic and Dumoulin.
Click to expand...
Exactly...its not all about raw power, there's efficiency and power transfer to factor in. For some reason, Roglic, usually super smooth and efficient, visually at least just fell apart in this regard on that last climb.
He couldn't even transfer his helmet efficiently onto his head...
 
DFA123

DFA123

Nov 7, 2010
8,820
245
17,880
Visit site
Escarabajo said:
It is a moot point in this case for Pogacar because he made most of the time in the steep climb. Sounds like excuses for him. If there is an smoking gun based on power or performance this is it.
Click to expand...
Nonsense. There is no smoking gun based on power for Pogacar, because we've got no idea of what his power was. You can't just extrapolate and guess his power in a TT from Roglic's data.

All we know is that he narrowly beat Aru's climbing time on the final climb. While wearing a skin suit and aero helmet and with a bike in a particularly aggressive position.

Is his climbing time a smoking gun? Possibly, but trying to imply you can work out even rough w/kg for his ride is just nonsense.
 
  • Like
Reactions: brownbobby
Cookster15

Cookster15

May 14, 2011
5,031
4,821
23,180
Visit site
42x16ss said:
You DO know that Dumoulin is second only to Pantani on a number of climbs after his 2017 Giro d'italia efforts right? He's just one example.

Believe it or not, I actually DON'T want to be right, and this belief that accepting doping occurs somehow makes you less of a fan is an overly simplistic view.
Click to expand...
I think you are also being overly simplistic. Of course doping occurs but exaggeration doesn't help. Nobody is close to Pantani's climbing level. When I read someone riding Alpe D'Huez at sub 39 minutes you will have my attention. Pantani did sub 37 minutes - twice and that was confirmed. Alpe times in the TdF are a good benchmark because everyone is on top form.

I agree with DFA and BB, Pogacar on Planche looked very strong to the eye and compared to Roglic was pushing an optimal gear. Roglic looked to be riding too small a gear. LRP also looked stronger on the bike than Roglic.
 
  • Like
Reactions: brownbobby and DFA123
Cookster15

Cookster15

May 14, 2011
5,031
4,821
23,180
Visit site
macbindle said:
The tour didnt go up Alpe d'Huez.

But it did go up Col de Marie Blanque, Col de Peyresourde and Grand Colombier, and new records were set.

Ok, merely looking at climb times decontextualises them, but nevertheless those records were beating the ones set by uber-dopers like Vino.
Click to expand...
I wasn't referring to this year. Am referring to the claim they are climbing faster than Pantani's day. If they are then can someone please share evidence rather than than make unsubstantiated claims? I quoted Alpe because that is a good benchmark. Did Pantani climb Col de Marie Blanque, Col de Peyresourde and Grand Colombier? If so, was it timed and from the same start and stop points? That is the only way to substantiate the claim.
 
Escarabajo

Escarabajo

Apr 16, 2009
17,175
6,146
28,180
Visit site
DFA123 said:
Nonsense. There is no smoking gun based on power for Pogacar, because we've got no idea of what his power was. You can't just extrapolate and guess his power in a TT from Roglic's data.

All we know is that he narrowly beat Aru's climbing time on the final climb. While wearing a skin suit and aero helmet and with a bike in a particularly aggressive position.

Is his climbing time a smoking gun? Possibly, but trying to imply you can work out even rough w/kg for his ride is just nonsense.
Click to expand...
For a climb it is very easy. It is not rocket science. I have done it many times. The problem is for a flat section because in depends so much on position and frontal area drag.
I am just very busy now but the ranges given are close enough. Because this is a steep climb. It is not nonsense. If you continue to believe so we agree to disagree. Ok.
 
DFA123

DFA123

Nov 7, 2010
8,820
245
17,880
Visit site
Escarabajo said:
For a climb it is very easy. It is not rocket science. I have done it many times. The problem is for a flat section because in depends so much on position and frontal area drag.
I am just very busy now but the ranges given are close enough. Because this is a steep climb. It is not nonsense. If you continue to believe so we agree to disagree. Ok.
Click to expand...
While, 'steep' is subjective, but what's important is that frontal drag still matters at 22km/h average speed. Aero helmet, skin suit and bike set up can all make significant differences, even at the speeds he did the climb on. Without knowing his power data, it's all just guesswork how much more efficient he was than his competitors.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

TRENDING THREADS

Latest posts

Share this page

COMPANY
RESOURCES
FOLLOW
Top Bottom