Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Netserk]

I think peak Conti would have been 2007-2008. Would certainly have been interesting had there not been some degree of cooling off. Off topic for AdH, but that Col de Peyresourde stage from 2007 was crazy.

2014>2009>2007>2011

 

[PhiLiz]

I appreciate him, but his performance today is beyond suspicious.

 

[therealthing]

This is almost TDF stage 20 levels of ridiculousness.

 

[Bronstein]

Made van Aert look second rate.

 

[Ripper]

Oh well, is it really surprising anymore? I can see vdP rocking this, even though I have suspicions in general, given he took yesterday off. However, this just has silly written all over it.

I really wish TP had signed with a different team. It is really, really hard to believe miracle level performances in the best of times, but with Mauro and the gang, I just cannot suspend disbelief.

 

[F_Cance]

glowing in the dark

 

[Escarabajo]

UCI being worthless as usual. Especially during these covid 19 times.

I doesn't bode well to allow freedom in programs if we later are going to find out that history is going to be changed like with Lance. No one will be happy.

 

[Ripper]

Actually, partly check my comment above. I think vdP is OTT too (not like WvA does not raise eyebrows), but TP is just multiples of even crazier.

 

[zlev11]

Formolo did an insane ride today too. Saunier Duval is back.

 

[Forever The Best]

He should attempt the double next year, since he's also excellent in time trialing. Crazy performances by Pogacar in the last year.

 

[topt]

Made van Aert look second rate.

thats because he is second rate

 

[IndianCyclist]

Ok so the guy is the best climber and the best TT. Just a few weeks back he was dropped in Strade by VDP & WVA. Now he can beat both. So now like he is the best classics rider also. 7 W/kg & 460 w power. What's next PR & all 5 monuments?

 

[F_Cance]

Can not wait for him to beat Ganna in the ITT. Would be the icing on the cake

 

[topcat]

Lance: "I hate to say I told you so, but I told you so"

 

[Gigs_98]

There will always be non-clinic variables that impact performances. Bernal's back, Thomas too fat, Froome FUBAR. And there's no reason not to think that blood bags are still the cornerstone of high-end programs. But there's more to it than that, I think so too. It has just been too long since major reveals for us to know much of current cocktails.

This is what I find so strange really. Like, the biggest doping scandals have usually come from some sort of investigations not necessarily related to positive tests. Even if methods have become so good that they are basically undetectable, it's weird no misstep has happened for so long. Did the peloton maybe really get significantly cleaner and is only now getting dirtier again? Is it even getting dirtier again?

My guess would be yes, not only because of climbing times, but because we basically know for a fact from a few cases that the biological passport doesn't work and bloodbags are still undetectable. But in any case I'm very curious how the next ten years will go and if we will still be sitting here talking about "how long it's been since the last major scandal".

Pogacar, Idk, it just seems a little too good for me.

 

[Colonel]

Ok so the guy is the best climber and the best TT. Just a few weeks back he was dropped in Strade by VDP & WVA. Now he can beat both. So now like he is the best classics rider also. 7 W/kg & 460 w power. What's next PR & all 5 monuments?

he did no where near that power. I would love to hear your stories of when you went fishing.

 

[topcat]

he did no where near that power. I would love to hear your stories of when you went fishing.

6.6 w/kg for 36 minutes in March. Smh

 

[Sciatic]

This is what I find so strange really. Like, the biggest doping scandals have usually come from some sort of investigations not necessarily related to positive tests. Even if methods have become so good that they are basically undetectable, it's weird no misstep has happened for so long. Did the peloton maybe really get significantly cleaner and is only now getting dirtier again? Is it even getting dirtier again?

My guess would be yes, not only because of climbing times, but because we basically know for a fact from a few cases that the biological passport doesn't work and bloodbags are still undetectable. But in any case I'm very curious how the next ten years will go and if we will still be sitting here talking about "how long it's been since the last major scandal".

Pogacar, Idk, it just seems a little too good for me.

We need your Austrian police to get back at it . . . They’re the only we can count on getting us some dirt!

 

[Red Rick]

This is what I find so strange really. Like, the biggest doping scandals have usually come from some sort of investigations not necessarily related to positive tests. Even if methods have become so good that they are basically undetectable, it's weird no misstep has happened for so long. Did the peloton maybe really get significantly cleaner and is only now getting dirtier again? Is it even getting dirtier again?

My guess would be yes, not only because of climbing times, but because we basically know for a fact from a few cases that the biological passport doesn't work and bloodbags are still undetectable. But in any case I'm very curious how the next ten years will go and if we will still be sitting here talking about "how long it's been since the last major scandal".

Pogacar, Idk, it just seems a little too good for me.

If my clean you mean "abusing compounds before they even hit the forbidden substance list" then maybe?

 

[Escarabajo]

I don't believe that there are new substances related to new drugs in the last 2 years. I won't discard it, but I don't think that is the issue. For me the big issue is abusing the system during Covid 19 times. Authorities and most everyone is distracted by the Pandemic. I am not sure how much testing there has been. Soon Pogacar will find company before he knows it. Same happened in the 90's with Induraín. But riders will react fast.

As for the biological passport, you have to screw up to trip the wire. I don't know if it has gotten any better but many years ago when it was implemented I read some about it and the truth is that the UCI has to set the threshold too wide so that there is no doubt about it or that it would hold in a judicial court. So it has to be bad. I think it was beyond 98% probabilities which is way too high. maybe someone can attest to the limits.

The best that the UCI can do is sending warning letters which kind of helps since it can scare the riders. But some might not care.

The Biological Passport: Legal, scientific and performance views

It's been just over a week since the Court of Arbitration for Sport released the summary of its decision to issue bans to two Italian cyclists, Franco

sportsscientists.com

.

 

[Gigs_98]

As for the biological passport, you have to screw up to trip the wire. I don't know if it has gotten any better but many years ago when it was implemented I read some about it and the truth is that the UCI has to set the threshold too wide so that there is no doubt about it or that it would hold in a judicial court. So it has to be bad. I think it was beyond 98% probabilities which is way too high. maybe someone can attest to the limits.

@Sciatic basicaly referenced to it above, the moment I've lost every trust in the biological passport was two years ago when a bunch of crosscountry skiers were caught by the police, amateurishly blood doping, and not a single one would have been caught by the bio passport. Yeah, sure, those guys can trick the system with the entire effort of giving a few thousand bucks of their private earnings to some doctor, but big organisations with millions of dollars at their disposal can't. Mhm, that bio passport sounds about as bullet proof as if you literally tried to use a passport to protect you from bullets.

I feel like for two years that story is basically the only thing I've written about in the clinic and I kinda feel like I must start to annoy people, but it's simply the clear proof that there are still doping methods that are undetectable and I feel like way to few people see this story as such.

If my clean you mean "abusing compounds before they even hit the forbidden substance list" then maybe?

Well it's indeed a question of how you define clean. While I have written above about why I still think that doping is widespread, some of the old methods are certainly not used anymore nowadays and the question is whether those methods have been replaced by newer ones or if athletes just started to dope more conservatively. Looking back at the past decade I think it's absolutely possible that no brand new undetectable ped's appeared on the market and riders were only able to microdose or use bloodbags or stuff like that. That would explain why the climbing times did get a little less crazy throughout the 2010's and it only got crazy again now due to covid.

 

[Sciatic]

I also wonder whether Froome getting off from his doping violation may have prompted some bigger name riders to dope with more impunity. The message from that case seemed to be that if you have enough money and influence (which I realize not all riders have that backup), you can roll out attorneys and favorable scientists so that even if you get caught, you won’t be caught.

 

[Ripper]

I also wonder whether Froome getting off from his doping violation may have prompted some bigger name riders to dope with more impunity. The message from that case seemed to be that if you have enough money and influence (which I realize not all riders have that backup), you can roll out attorneys and favorable scientists so that even if you get caught, you won’t be caught.

I honestly wonder if testing has ever really caught up with the pace of dopers, never mind even being ahead?

If you think of most 'big' doping positives in modern cycling history, it seems most occurred not as a result of random testing. Moreover, when dopers have 'come clean', on numerous occasions they've indicated the ease to which the system can be abused. With this on top of a marked decrease in testing in the past year, is it really a surprise that the performances are just that much crazier?

I mean, if Masters racers in my category are getting popped in local, mean nothing, industrial park criteriums and rural road races, I think elite sport is a whole different dimension.

 

[Koronin]

I don't believe that there are new substances related to new drugs in the last 2 years. I won't discard it, but I don't think that is the issue. For me the big issue is abusing the system during Covid 19 times. Authorities and most everyone is distracted by the Pandemic. I am not sure how much testing there has been. Soon Pogacar will find company before he knows it. Same happened in the 90's with Induraín. But riders will react fast.

As for the biological passport, you have to screw up to trip the wire. I don't know if it has gotten any better but many years ago when it was implemented I read some about it and the truth is that the UCI has to set the threshold too wide so that there is no doubt about it or that it would hold in a judicial court. So it has to be bad. I think it was beyond 98% probabilities which is way too high. maybe someone can attest to the limits.

The best that the UCI can do is sending warning letters which kind of helps since it can scare the riders. But some might not care.

The Biological Passport: Legal, scientific and performance views

It's been just over a week since the Court of Arbitration for Sport released the summary of its decision to issue bans to two Italian cyclists, Franco

sportsscientists.com

.

Don't forget the crazy ruling in Spain that tossed the bio passport as evidence for doping. Yes, yes, we are talking about the Spanish courts and a Spanish rider involved, but still they did make that ruling.

 

[Netserk]

@Sciatic basicaly referenced to it above, the moment I've lost every trust in the biological passport was two years ago when a bunch of crosscountry skiers were caught by the police, amateurishly blood doping, and not a single one would have been caught by the bio passport. Yeah, sure, those guys can trick the system with the entire effort of giving a few thousand bucks of their private earnings to some doctor, but big organisations with millions of dollars at their disposal can't. Mhm, that bio passport sounds about as bullet proof as if you literally tried to use a passport to protect you from bullets.

I feel like for two years that story is basically the only thing I've written about in the clinic and I kinda feel like I must start to annoy people, but it's simply the clear proof that there are still doping methods that are undetectable and I feel like way to few people see this story as such.

Kreuziger was also a turning point. It is better understood how you game the passport, and especially how some data points (e.g. OOC at altitude, medication) carry less weight.