Question Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

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Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.

All of cycling history suggests that when something is unbelievable, you should indeed not believe it. But why would this time be different?

Van Aert right now could beat 2013 Froome while winning bunch sprints as well.
he could also beat Eddy Merckx, cycling is evolving like every other sports. Let look at athletics. Is everybody doping that beat WRs from proven dopers.
I mean Pogacar an WVA could be on it but I would like to see at least some evidence not just "unbelivable performance", he cant be better than my favorite rider
 
people like me, clinic has become "a rider is better than my favorite rider, let accuse him of doping". Shouldnt there be at least some evidence before we do that.
Who are my favorite riders then? ;)

I think you are confused about evidence. It sounds like you are asking for irrefutable proof, such as testing results. As opposed to evidence of markedly improved performances, without clear and reasonable explanations. There has been lots of evidence over the past year that things are different.
 
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he could also beat Eddy Merckx, cycling is evolving like every other sports. Let look at athletics. Is everybody doping that beat WRs from proven dopers.
I mean Pogacar an WVA could be on it but I would like to see at least some evidence not just "unbelivable performance", he cant be better than my favorite rider
Actually, right now cycling is looking worse than Athletics in some regards: there are still WRs in track & field standing from the late 1970s & early 1980s set in sprint/jumping/throwing events by East Germans, Russians, Czechs, and Bulgarians that may not be surpassed for another 50 years. So recent cycling records seem to be getting close to the past era of peak doping. But maybe that’s simply because massive doping with anabolic steroids is harder to get away with than massive doping with blood vector manipulation? Though obviously my pseudo- argument doesn’t hold up when you look at Jamaican sprinters or the distance events.
 
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people like me, clinic has become "a rider is better than my favorite rider, let accuse him of doping". Shouldnt there be at least some evidence before we do that.
I don't understand why you get so personal or sensitive about it.

The Clinic has been quiet for a while now. Even after some busts not many people care to come here to post. However, things are starting to get out of hand and the river is carrying some rocks. Even though there is no evidence in a sense of positive tests (I am not sure if we ever see one, like many high profile athletes who have doped throughout their career without a positive test) there are some indications that something is going on. That is the main reason for this thread.

Question for you. If Pogacar posts a time of 35 - 36 minutes on Alpe D'Huez would you need to see a positive test to validate that he is doping? If You do, then you are going to have a hard time reading through the posts on this thread anyway. BTW, do you think that if Pogacar post a magnificent time on Alpe D'Huez (<=36 minutes) the UCI will not be concerned?

Everyone is paying attention to these things whether you like it or not.
 
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Question for you. If Pogacar posts a time of 35 - 36 minutes on Alpe D'Huez would you need to see a positive test to validate that he is doping? If You do, then you are going to have a hard time reading through the posts on this thread anyway. BTW, do you think that if Pogacar post a magnificent time on Alpe D'Huez (<=36 minutes) the UCI will not be concerned?

Everyone is paying attention to these things whether you like it or not.
35-36 minutes on Alpe d'Huez is impossible to reach, even by current Pogacar. I don't think anyone will beat Pantani's record in near future.

Pogacar on Peyresourde reached an average VAM of about 1840 m/h: it was one of his best ever performances. Alpe d'Huez has a very similar average gradient so he could reach an almost identical VAM there (with the same power). However Alpe is almost 50% longer than Peyresourde so a decrease of average performance is expected. I think it's safe to assume that Pogacar could reach an average VAM of 1750-1800 m/h on Alpe (corresponding to 2-5% of performance drop on a longer climb). Assuming 1125 meters of climb we get Alpe time in 37.5 - 38.5 minutes range. He could get close to Armstrong's time but Pantani seems out of reach.
 
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Seeing current Pogacar I see him doing sub 37 minutes time. Of course, I could be wrong but that is possible for him.
Well, maybe it would be possible for peak Pogacar in a TT (like Armstrong's in 2004), cause steady effort means better average performance and obviously Peyresourde wasn't steady (meaning that Poga's VAM wasn't maximized). On PDBF he reached a VAM of 1860 m/h (the climb was steeper than Alpe so it's equivalent of almost 1830 m/h on Alpe) but it's important to note that (despite PDBF being a short climb) Poga's effort was long - intense 30 km of TT preceeded the climb. If his power before and during the climb was the same or very similar (it could be the case cause he was flying on both sections) then he could indeed maintain 1830 m/h on Alpe, resulting in a staggering time of about 37 minutes (or even a bit less).
 
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Who are my favorite riders then? ;)

I think you are confused about evidence. It sounds like you are asking for irrefutable proof, such as testing results. As opposed to evidence of markedly improved performances, without clear and reasonable explanations. There has been lots of evidence over the past year that things are different.
which evidence, i havent seen one; improved performances ? he is 22 and has been one of the biggest talents in cycling like forever. I would consider a PED improved performance something like Froome has done. Gone from a donkey to top rider.
No, i dont mean a positive test but at least some smoke, like its happening with sky now.
 
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I don't understand why you get so personal or sensitive about it.

The Clinic has been quiet for a while now. Even after some busts not many people care to come here to post. However, things are starting to get out of hand and the river is carrying some rocks. Even though there is no evidence in a sense of positive tests (I am not sure if we ever see one, like many high profile athletes who have doped throughout their career without a positive test) there are some indications that something is going on. That is the main reason for this thread.

Question for you. If Pogacar posts a time of 35 - 36 minutes on Alpe D'Huez would you need to see a positive test to validate that he is doping? If You do, then you are going to have a hard time reading through the posts on this thread anyway. BTW, do you think that if Pogacar post a magnificent time on Alpe D'Huez (<=36 minutes) the UCI will not be concerned?

Everyone is paying attention to these things whether you like it or not.
I dont know but based on assumption like that usain bolt is for sure on peds cause he broke a WR from caught dopers.
there has to be at least something more, not he is just fast.
Some will think I am naive but i think the great perfomances on climbs are mostly contributed to better gearing. Guys now are riding even 50-30 (32) on steep climbs, Pantani and Lance were riding 23-25 and 53 crank
 
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which evidence, i havent seen one; improved performances ? he is 22 and has been one of the biggest talents in cycling like forever. I would consider a PED improved performance something like Froome has done. Gone from a donkey to top rider.
No, i dont mean a positive test but at least some smoke, like its happening with sky now.
Ah, so different ideas of what represents smoke :p
 
which evidence, i havent seen one; improved performances ? he is 22 and has been one of the biggest talents in cycling like forever. I would consider a PED improved performance something like Froome has done. Gone from a donkey to top rider.
No, i dont mean a positive test but at least some smoke, like its happening with sky now.
But the smoke, if you mean the trial, came almost ten years later...

And if Bolt wasn't doped, I'll eat my laptop.
 
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you dont think there is a differnce
Actually, more like what some folks see as smoke, others do not. For example, you have stated "which evidence, i havent seen one ... i dont mean a positive test but at least some smoke, like its happening with sky now", . However, I would say there is smoke, with wins by a large margin, climbing records falling significantly, and what still amounts to a fairly big jump in level, etc.

If it Froom-like? No, of course not. But that transfroomation has had lots written about it and is really quite the suspension of disbelief. Doping does not always equal donkey to a top rider. You can be talented to begin with as well ... tends to work better that way.

It's all opinions right now. It's fine that your thoughts on evidence are different.
 
I dont know but based on assumption like that usain bolt is for sure on peds cause he broke a WR from caught dopers.
there has to be at least something more, not he is just fast.
Some will think I am naive but i think the great perfomances on climbs are mostly contributed to better gearing. Guys now are riding even 50-30 (32) on steep climbs, Pantani and Lance were riding 23-25 and 53 crank
Better gearing? You're aware that Lance touted his high cadence as part of his transformation?
 
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Better gearing? You're aware that Lance touted his high cadence as part of his transformation?
his cadence was still lower than riders today, there just wasnt the technolgy back than; he was riding 39-25 , compare this to today options of 34-30(32), big difference; " When he won on Alpe d'Huez in 2001, it's said he used 39x24 "
Riders today can do 100 cadence on climbs, like they do on flat or TT, back than it just wasnt possible
 
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Riders today typically have a cadence about 90 rpm on climbs. Same for Tadej.
Roglic has 100, I am not sure for Pogi, now look at 2001 Lance; also difference now is they just dont have to ride on pedals, they just do it for acceleration, back in Lance days it was pedals, rest, back on pedals, you just couldnt hold high cadence riding in the saddle cause of the lower gearing
 
So this TT had a lot of climbing and great ramps. Yet he has same time as Yates who started 15 mins earlier. Losing form might be a reason but not like he was insane in TDF before the ITT apart from Peyresourde. Looking forward to the last ITT in TDF 2021, another wonder is gonna happen thanks to his "recovery".
 
Im not too much into Clinic. I usually dont want to throw **** without proves. But how many posibilities are that two guys from the same country dominate this way the sport, having into account that it is a country with no cycling tradition?
 
Im not too much into Clinic. I usually dont want to throw **** without proves. But how many posibilities are that two guys from the same country dominate this way the sport, having into account that it is a country with no cycling tradition?
It was posted in here initially: https://forum.cyclingnews.com/threads/state-of-the-peloton-2021.36806/
Post #10.

It looks like nobody cared that much since people feel like it is a given that they are doped. However there were different questions about the breaking of the records in almost every race in the last year. Sounds like the Slovenians are leading the way of the doped to gills riders among many others.
 
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