Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Escarabajo]

perhaps when you show us some evidence against him people will change their mind

Which people?

 

[topt]

Which people?

people like me, clinic has become "a rider is better than my favorite rider, let accuse him of doping". Shouldnt there be at least some evidence before we do that.

 

[topt]

Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.

All of cycling history suggests that when something is unbelievable, you should indeed not believe it. But why would this time be different?

Van Aert right now could beat 2013 Froome while winning bunch sprints as well.

he could also beat Eddy Merckx, cycling is evolving like every other sports. Let look at athletics. Is everybody doping that beat WRs from proven dopers.
I mean Pogacar an WVA could be on it but I would like to see at least some evidence not just "unbelivable performance", he cant be better than my favorite rider

 

[Ripper]

people like me, clinic has become "a rider is better than my favorite rider, let accuse him of doping". Shouldnt there be at least some evidence before we do that.

Who are my favorite riders then?

I think you are confused about evidence. It sounds like you are asking for irrefutable proof, such as testing results. As opposed to evidence of markedly improved performances, without clear and reasonable explanations. There has been lots of evidence over the past year that things are different.

 

[Sciatic]

he could also beat Eddy Merckx, cycling is evolving like every other sports. Let look at athletics. Is everybody doping that beat WRs from proven dopers.
I mean Pogacar an WVA could be on it but I would like to see at least some evidence not just "unbelivable performance", he cant be better than my favorite rider

Actually, right now cycling is looking worse than Athletics in some regards: there are still WRs in track & field standing from the late 1970s & early 1980s set in sprint/jumping/throwing events by East Germans, Russians, Czechs, and Bulgarians that may not be surpassed for another 50 years. So recent cycling records seem to be getting close to the past era of peak doping. But maybe that’s simply because massive doping with anabolic steroids is harder to get away with than massive doping with blood vector manipulation? Though obviously my pseudo- argument doesn’t hold up when you look at Jamaican sprinters or the distance events.

 

[Escarabajo]

people like me, clinic has become "a rider is better than my favorite rider, let accuse him of doping". Shouldnt there be at least some evidence before we do that.

I don't understand why you get so personal or sensitive about it.

The Clinic has been quiet for a while now. Even after some busts not many people care to come here to post. However, things are starting to get out of hand and the river is carrying some rocks. Even though there is no evidence in a sense of positive tests (I am not sure if we ever see one, like many high profile athletes who have doped throughout their career without a positive test) there are some indications that something is going on. That is the main reason for this thread.

Question for you. If Pogacar posts a time of 35 - 36 minutes on Alpe D'Huez would you need to see a positive test to validate that he is doping? If You do, then you are going to have a hard time reading through the posts on this thread anyway. BTW, do you think that if Pogacar post a magnificent time on Alpe D'Huez (<=36 minutes) the UCI will not be concerned?

Everyone is paying attention to these things whether you like it or not.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Question for you. If Pogacar posts a time of 35 - 36 minutes on Alpe D'Huez would you need to see a positive test to validate that he is doping? If You do, then you are going to have a hard time reading through the posts on this thread anyway. BTW, do you think that if Pogacar post a magnificent time on Alpe D'Huez (<=36 minutes) the UCI will not be concerned?

Everyone is paying attention to these things whether you like it or not.

35-36 minutes on Alpe d'Huez is impossible to reach, even by current Pogacar. I don't think anyone will beat Pantani's record in near future.

Pogacar on Peyresourde reached an average VAM of about 1840 m/h: it was one of his best ever performances. Alpe d'Huez has a very similar average gradient so he could reach an almost identical VAM there (with the same power). However Alpe is almost 50% longer than Peyresourde so a decrease of average performance is expected. I think it's safe to assume that Pogacar could reach an average VAM of 1750-1800 m/h on Alpe (corresponding to 2-5% of performance drop on a longer climb). Assuming 1125 meters of climb we get Alpe time in 37.5 - 38.5 minutes range. He could get close to Armstrong's time but Pantani seems out of reach.

 

[Escarabajo]

Seeing current Pogacar I see him doing sub 37 minutes time. Of course, I could be wrong but that is possible for him.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Seeing current Pogacar I see him doing sub 37 minutes time. Of course, I could be wrong but that is possible for him.

Well, maybe it would be possible for peak Pogacar in a TT (like Armstrong's in 2004), cause steady effort means better average performance and obviously Peyresourde wasn't steady (meaning that Poga's VAM wasn't maximized). On PDBF he reached a VAM of 1860 m/h (the climb was steeper than Alpe so it's equivalent of almost 1830 m/h on Alpe) but it's important to note that (despite PDBF being a short climb) Poga's effort was long - intense 30 km of TT preceeded the climb. If his power before and during the climb was the same or very similar (it could be the case cause he was flying on both sections) then he could indeed maintain 1830 m/h on Alpe, resulting in a staggering time of about 37 minutes (or even a bit less).

 

[topt]

Who are my favorite riders then?

I think you are confused about evidence. It sounds like you are asking for irrefutable proof, such as testing results. As opposed to evidence of markedly improved performances, without clear and reasonable explanations. There has been lots of evidence over the past year that things are different.

which evidence, i havent seen one; improved performances ? he is 22 and has been one of the biggest talents in cycling like forever. I would consider a PED improved performance something like Froome has done. Gone from a donkey to top rider.
No, i dont mean a positive test but at least some smoke, like its happening with sky now.

 

[topt]

I don't understand why you get so personal or sensitive about it.

The Clinic has been quiet for a while now. Even after some busts not many people care to come here to post. However, things are starting to get out of hand and the river is carrying some rocks. Even though there is no evidence in a sense of positive tests (I am not sure if we ever see one, like many high profile athletes who have doped throughout their career without a positive test) there are some indications that something is going on. That is the main reason for this thread.

Question for you. If Pogacar posts a time of 35 - 36 minutes on Alpe D'Huez would you need to see a positive test to validate that he is doping? If You do, then you are going to have a hard time reading through the posts on this thread anyway. BTW, do you think that if Pogacar post a magnificent time on Alpe D'Huez (<=36 minutes) the UCI will not be concerned?

Everyone is paying attention to these things whether you like it or not.

I dont know but based on assumption like that usain bolt is for sure on peds cause he broke a WR from caught dopers.
there has to be at least something more, not he is just fast.
Some will think I am naive but i think the great perfomances on climbs are mostly contributed to better gearing. Guys now are riding even 50-30 (32) on steep climbs, Pantani and Lance were riding 23-25 and 53 crank

 

[Ripper]

which evidence, i havent seen one; improved performances ? he is 22 and has been one of the biggest talents in cycling like forever. I would consider a PED improved performance something like Froome has done. Gone from a donkey to top rider.
No, i dont mean a positive test but at least some smoke, like its happening with sky now.

Ah, so different ideas of what represents smoke

 

[topt]

Ah, so different ideas of what represents smoke

you dont think there is a differnce

 

[BlueRoads]

which evidence, i havent seen one; improved performances ? he is 22 and has been one of the biggest talents in cycling like forever. I would consider a PED improved performance something like Froome has done. Gone from a donkey to top rider.
No, i dont mean a positive test but at least some smoke, like its happening with sky now.

But the smoke, if you mean the trial, came almost ten years later...

And if Bolt wasn't doped, I'll eat my laptop.

 

[topt]

But the smoke, if you mean the trial, came almost ten years later...

And if Bolt wasn't doped, I'll eat my laptop.

trial perhaps but the smoke was there for a long time

 

[Ripper]

you dont think there is a differnce

Actually, more like what some folks see as smoke, others do not. For example, you have stated "which evidence, i havent seen one ... i dont mean a positive test but at least some smoke, like its happening with sky now", . However, I would say there is smoke, with wins by a large margin, climbing records falling significantly, and what still amounts to a fairly big jump in level, etc.

If it Froom-like? No, of course not. But that transfroomation has had lots written about it and is really quite the suspension of disbelief. Doping does not always equal donkey to a top rider. You can be talented to begin with as well ... tends to work better that way.

It's all opinions right now. It's fine that your thoughts on evidence are different.

 

[Netserk]

I dont know but based on assumption like that usain bolt is for sure on peds cause he broke a WR from caught dopers.
there has to be at least something more, not he is just fast.
Some will think I am naive but i think the great perfomances on climbs are mostly contributed to better gearing. Guys now are riding even 50-30 (32) on steep climbs, Pantani and Lance were riding 23-25 and 53 crank

Better gearing? You're aware that Lance touted his high cadence as part of his transformation?

 

[Ripper]

Better gearing? You're aware that Lance touted his high cadence as part of his transformation?

Yup!

 

[topt]

Better gearing? You're aware that Lance touted his high cadence as part of his transformation?

his cadence was still lower than riders today, there just wasnt the technolgy back than; he was riding 39-25 , compare this to today options of 34-30(32), big difference; " When he won on Alpe d'Huez in 2001, it's said he used 39x24 "
Riders today can do 100 cadence on climbs, like they do on flat or TT, back than it just wasnt possible

 

[Netserk]

Riders today typically have a cadence about 90 rpm on climbs. Same for Tadej.

 

[topt]

Riders today typically have a cadence about 90 rpm on climbs. Same for Tadej.

Roglic has 100, I am not sure for Pogi, now look at 2001 Lance; also difference now is they just dont have to ride on pedals, they just do it for acceleration, back in Lance days it was pedals, rest, back on pedals, you just couldnt hold high cadence riding in the saddle cause of the lower gearing

 

[Luthor]

So this TT had a lot of climbing and great ramps. Yet he has same time as Yates who started 15 mins earlier. Losing form might be a reason but not like he was insane in TDF before the ITT apart from Peyresourde. Looking forward to the last ITT in TDF 2021, another wonder is gonna happen thanks to his "recovery".

 

[Fernandez]

Im not too much into Clinic. I usually dont want to throw **** without proves. But how many posibilities are that two guys from the same country dominate this way the sport, having into account that it is a country with no cycling tradition?

 

[Escarabajo]

Im not too much into Clinic. I usually dont want to throw **** without proves. But how many posibilities are that two guys from the same country dominate this way the sport, having into account that it is a country with no cycling tradition?

It was posted in here initially: https://forum.cyclingnews.com/threads/state-of-the-peloton-2021.36806/
Post #10.

It looks like nobody cared that much since people feel like it is a given that they are doped. However there were different questions about the breaking of the records in almost every race in the last year. Sounds like the Slovenians are leading the way of the doped to gills riders among many others.

 

[johnymax]

Im not too much into Clinic. I usually dont want to throw **** without proves. But how many posibilities are that two guys from the same country dominate this way the sport, having into account that it is a country with no cycling tradition?

It was posted in here initially: https://forum.cyclingnews.com/threads/state-of-the-peloton-2021.36806/
Post #10.

It looks like nobody cared that much since people feel like it is a given that they are doped. However there were different questions about the breaking of the records in almost every race in the last year. Sounds like the Slovenians are leading the way of the doped to gills riders among many others.

I've read your post a while back and wrote a very very very long reply, but I didn't finish it so the next day I decided not to bother and deleted it. I'll try again.

What exactly is the premise here? That the Slovenians have something that nobody else has? That's laughable. If they are on something, be sure that all the more powerful nations in cycling have it, too. Why Mohoric, who was btw a junior and U23 World Champion in consecutive years, isn't suddenly a World beater. Why the other Slovenians are nothing more than domestiques in their teams with an occasional stage win here and there? This is more of a trainer issue and team/team doctor issue if there is an issue. My first point.

My second point. The notion that Slovenia has no cycling tradition is false. In my deleted long post, I went more into details, but I'm not going to write it all again. Anyway, even in the former Yugoslavia, Slovenian cycling had the leading positions among Yugoslavian republics in the 70s and 80s. In the 80s and 90s it was closely linked to Italian cycling, meaning almost every cyclist that went Pro, went to an Italian team first. Every decade there were better and better cyclist coming out of Slovenia. From Jure Pavlic, Primoz Cerin (btw a close friend and advisor of Roglic), Gorazd Stangelj, Andrej Hauptman (bronze medalist in 2001 WC RR), Uros Murn, Tadej Valjavec, Jani Brajkovic, Simon Spilak to the ones active today with Matej Mohoric, Pogi and Rogla leading the way. In 2017 there were 13 Slovenian cyclists in the World Tour, the most ever. Today there are 7. It's a small number in absolute terms, but if you consider Slovenia's population, it becomes a big number in relative terms. But the number is still comparable (and doesn't stick out) to the number of Slovenians in top teams in the early 00s for example. It's just that you didn't have the Roglics and Pogacars of this World but the Mohorics, Tratniks, Mezgecs and Boles in the figure of Klemencic, Podgornik, Derganc, Murn, Hauptman, Stangelj etc.

Another couple of things important for the rise of Slovenian cycling are the creation of Tour of Slovenia in the early 90s and the stability of it's most important club Adria Mobil. Almost all the best Slovenian cyclist who became professionals in the last 20 years, went through Adria Mobil and then traded to a WT or ProConti team. Pogacar is a rare exception. He never rode for Adria but went from his team Ljubljana Gusto Xaurum (Rog-Ljubljana) straight to UAE.

There is also a cycling culture in Slovenia. You can see a lot of cyclist on the roads in every part of the country. The roads are mostly good, the terrain is very hilly and mountainous with lots of climbs. Also the amateur scene is pretty strong with lots of amateur races on those climbs. It's been this way for decades now.

If I go back in time again for a decade or so. In the late 00s and early 10s, there were very strong junior and U23 Slovenian national teams, that were comparable to the strongest teams of more traditional cycling nations. Teams when Brajkovic, Spilak, Mohoric all got a medal, Kump got a 6th place and Pibernik got 5th or 6th, Bole was also up there I think. Those were all strong teams in junior and/or U23 WC RR races. It shows solid work in Slovenian clubs' youth cycling movement.

All I've mentioned above of course is not at all comparable to the tradition of cycling nations like Belgium or Italy or France etc. But does this mean that Champions in this sport should come only from countries with big tradition? Why? Cycling has been steadily improving in Slovenia since the 80s. Is 40 years not enough long of a time span to produce a World class rider or two? Is it because there are two of them at the same time? Mind you, they are not the same generation. There is 10 years between them. This could very well be a coincidence. 10 years ago, we already had a similar situation with Brajkovic and Spilak. They weren't top of the top like Pog&Rog are right now. But they both could win a WT stage race at the same time and they did, in 2010. One won Romandie, the other Dauphine.

Another important point...
There is a very big tradition in sports in general in Slovenia. When I think of Slovenia, I think of a sport's nation. If you ask all the inhabitants, they'll probably answer you the same. We are mostly proud of our achievements in sport, and there are more than just few. It's not a coincidence Slovenia is often at the top of the list in medals per capita at almost every Olympics, summer or winter. Traditionally Slovenians are best known for winter sports (alpine skiing, ski jumping) and basketball. But in the last 30 years (since independence) there have been champions in handball, gymnastics, ice hockey, cross country, football, skiing, biathlon, rowing, sailing, volleyball, judo, motocross, athletics, sport climbing and the before mentioned ski jumping, alpine skiing and basketball. In all of those sports and probably some I missed, there was a sportsman/woman or a team from Slovenia that was at the top of the world or very close to it for some period of time in their respective sport or discipline. It was only a matter of time for a cycling champion to appear. And like I explained before. Cycling in Slovenia didn't start with Roglic, but way before.

There you have it. I hope it helps with some answers. I'm not saying they are doping or not doping. I just wanted to point out that it's not such a random occurrence for a top cyclist or two to come from Slovenia as it seems. They both also have had completely different paths to the position they are now. Roglic came from another sport in which he was one of the best prospects in the World, but a heavy crash messed with his plans and he lost motivation because he couldn't achieve his goal of becoming the best. He switched to cycling because he liked it and because at the time he was already winning amateur races. He was 22 at the time and had to learn absolutely everything of the sport. He's been steadily improving since then and is still improving. It's unbelievable but that's true. Every single year of his career he's been better than the previous one. A trajectory as steady as it gets. I challenge you, or anybody, to find and show me a rider (from whatever era) that has made as steady of a progression as Roglic has in the last 9 years.

Pogacar on the other hand has always been a prodigy of the sport. He started training when he was 11 and soon competed with cyclists 2 years older than him, but looked 5 years older than him, yet he was winning races. He went toe to toe with riders like Majka, Visconti and Haig in 2017 Tour of Slovenia when he finished 5th at 18yo. Next year he was 4th and won Tour de l'Avenir among other races. The rest is history.

I remember a press conference in 2018, I think, where Roglic jokingly said out loud: "Pogi you should wait a couple of years before going Pro, because you'll start winning immediately and there will be nothing left for the rest of us." Those words were so true.

Again doping, no doping, I don't know. All I'm sure is, there is no special magic potion that only Roglic and Pogacar use and no one else.