Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Extinction]

View: https://youtu.be/RvxiBJVihfk?si=Y3wKT1icrxcxXnYW

 

[Rob5091]

Power Analysis: Pogačar’s Power Numbers Are the Highest We’ve Ever Seen in Professional Cycling

In this column, we dive into the power numbers of Tadej Pogačar, Jonas Vingegaard, and more at the Tour de France.

velo.outsideonline.com

These are the highest numbers that we’ve ever seen in professional cycling, and what’s even more incredible is that Pogačar is pushing 7w/kg for 40 minutes after four hours of racing. Plus, they’re racing in the heat, and it’s the third week of a Grand Tour. Fatigue doesn’t seem to affect Pogačar, and it’s hard to imagine anyone beating him at his best. He was cruising in the final three stages of this year’s Tour, and he still won them all.

and of course, "Never tested positive!"

 

[meat puppet]

Power Analysis: Pogačar’s Power Numbers Are the Highest We’ve Ever Seen in Professional Cycling

In this column, we dive into the power numbers of Tadej Pogačar, Jonas Vingegaard, and more at the Tour de France.

velo.outsideonline.com

Good summary, but not a peep about the implications. As I've been saying the numbers are badges of honour now.

 

[Stablo]

2. Pogacar (the biggest talent since Merckx) crushes the peloton on the climbs.

Well the thing is that this isn't true. His not even the biggest talent of the current pro peloton. His junior results were good, but nothing out of the ordinary. Jorgensons development has been suspicious aswell, but this is not his topic. You also say that Poggie is now concentrating on stage races in training, but he still also destroys the field in every disclipine like no one has ever done in modern era of cycling. And the Giro&Tour double was also on a level of domination we havent seen since the sport has been this professional, without even being "out of breath" for even once, lmao.

 

[Barkintheeye]

Olympics have brought in a different anti-doping agency (AFLD) this year, not ITA/WADA.

That's interesting. The answer to why Pog has become too tired to participate?

 

[steffr222]

Olympics have brought in a different anti-doping agency (AFLD) this year, not ITA/WADA.

No. They just work together, addition instead of replacement

 

[Salvarani]

Well the thing is that this isn't true. His not even the biggest talent of the current pro peloton. His junior results were good, but nothing out of the ordinary. Jorgensons development has been suspicious aswell, but this is not his topic. You also say that Poggie is now concentrating on stage races in training, but he still also destroys the field in every disclipine like no one has ever done in modern era of cycling. And the Giro&Tour double was also on a level of domination we havent seen since the sport has been this professional, without even being "out of breath" for even once, lmao.

He was a great junior though and then won the biggest race in the U23s, the Tour de l'Avenir before going pro. Plenty of other very good results.

He comes from a small cycling country... obviously he might have flown a bit under the radar when he was really young and then the leap of improvement was bigger for him. Because the talent is obviously there.

I wouldnt imagine he had the same opportunities growing up as others may have had in bigger cycling countries.

This narrative that he wasnt talented and basically came out of nowhere, just doesnt hold up.

 

[Cookster15]

Well the thing is that this isn't true. His not even the biggest talent of the current pro peloton. His junior results were good, but nothing out of the ordinary. Jorgensons development has been suspicious aswell, but this is not his topic. You also say that Poggie is now concentrating on stage races in training, but he still also destroys the field in every disclipine like no one has ever done in modern era of cycling. And the Giro&Tour double was also on a level of domination we havent seen since the sport has been this professional, without even being "out of breath" for even once, lmao.

This is a pointless argument. How young do we need to go? The same old posters wearing them self out here but with a blind eye to their hero (never admitted).

Of course he is likely doping, like the others, but when Pog joined UAE he was still growing. At 19 or 20 the line is blurred and not everyone matures athletically at the same age or rate. Many variables at 19 or 20, not just doping.

 

[Stablo]

He was a great junior though and then won the biggest race in the U23s, the Tour de l'Avenir before going pro. Plenty of other very good results.

He comes from a small cycling country... obviously he might have flown a bit under the radar when he was really young and then the leap of improvement was bigger for him. Because the talent is obviously there.

I wouldnt imagine he had the same opportunities growing up as others may have had in bigger cycling countries.

This narrative that he wasnt talented and basically came out of nowhere, just doesnt hold up.

Nobody has been saying he wasnt/isnt talented, at least not me. He just wasnt as talented as some are saying, not even close to all the sudden perform on the "goat" level, even before this current season, year 2024 has just been even more ridicilous and not normal.

People who are huge fans of him and defend his results always bring up the Tour de l'Avenir, like there's a young talented rider winning it every year. It doesnt proof anything abt some next level goat talent we have never wittnessed. Even the great Merckx had a lot less competition than the pro peleton has these days. Still this one guy is destroying the field all season long without showing any weaknesses and on the way doing this smashing power records and times of doped to the gills riders. Vingegaard and some others are very suspicious too, but Teddy is currently miles above it. Not normal, period.

 

[Salvarani]

Nobody has been saying he wasnt/isnt talented, at least not me. He just wasnt as talented as some are saying, not even close to all the sudden perform on the "goat" level, even before this current season, year 2024 has just been even more ridicilous and not normal.

People who are huge fans of him and defend his results always bring up the Tour de l'Avenir, like there's a young talented rider winning it every year. It doesnt proof anything abt some next level goat talent we have never wittnessed. Even the great Mercks had a lot less competition than the pro peleton has these days. Still this one guy is destroying the field all season long without showing any weaknesses and on the way doing this smashing power records and times of doped to the gills riders. Vingegaard and some others are very suspicious too, but Teddy is currently miles above it. Not normal, period.

So no can improve and reach their full potential?

Yeah, ok but thats not the point of bringing up that race. It is just a good indicator of what could be and ominous of what could happen next. It is literally the race for the future. Nobody knows for real what will then happen.

Disregarding it is laughable.

And Vinge is the most insane currently.

 

[Stablo]

This is a pointless argument. How young do we need to go? The same old posters wearing them self out here but with a blind eye to their hero (never admitted).

Of course he is likely doping, like the others, but when Pog joined UAE he was still growing. At 19 or 20 the line is blurred and not everyone matures athletically at the same age or rate. Many variables at 19 or 20, not just doping.

I replied to this already in the post up there and made my point. And the argument is not pointless, Poggie is the big anomaly like Lance&Co was back in the days. His obviously talented like I said, but now way near as talented as we have been now seeing. Like come on Giro&Tour double with 12 stages and the style he made it(not even talking abt Katalonia, Strade, Liege etc.). He has been very suspicious even before, but for this year they clearly found smth new or upped the program.

In my oppinion this is really bad for cycling and even im considering to mostly skip following the races Poggie participates in, if this is allowed to continue. It's a travesty and I really love cycling and watching it, but if you only get annoyment from these ET performances what's the point. I mean I've would be fine if dominated only the Tour for example and if it was looking like a human performance with fatigue maybe weaker days etc., but its really beyond obvious with super human performances all year long.

 

[Stablo]

So no can improve and reach their full potential?

Yeah, ok but thats not the point of bringing up that race. It is just a good indicator of what could be and ominous of what could happen next. It is literally the race for the future. Nobody knows for real what will then happen.

Disregarding it is laughable.

And Vinge is the most insane currently.

To full potential please lmao. Why are you even here, isnt the circle jerk going on in Poggies own topic in the normal side 😉 and no Vinge isnt more suspicious, his not clean either. But nothing comes even close to monsters season this year. It has been discussed here over and over again.

And no hard feelings😊, its just funny how you fail to see how outrageous and obvious this season has been from the monster, which also has been discussed and explained here over and over again.

 

[Saint Unix]

This narrative that he wasnt talented and basically came out of nowhere, just doesnt hold up.

Ah, classic internet arguments and pretending like nuance doesn't exist. There's a pretty significant gap between saying he has no talent whatsoever and saying he's a Merckx tier talent. It's perfectly reasonable to call someone out for claiming he's literally the biggest talent in 50 years when he wasn't even the best junior of his generation. Even his teammate Hirschi, who is exactly the same age as him, was on a completely different level as a teenager. Sure, the fact that he's from Slovenia might play a part in his late development, but even if you compare him only to other Slovenians of a similar age his results do not indicate the sort of domination we've seen from him this season.

How anyone can say Pogacar is the biggest talent in the peloton, let alone the biggest talent in decades, is beyond me when Evenepoel exists. He had only ridden seriously for two years and was crushing everyone by minutes in every race he entered, and the only reason he wasn't even more dominant was that he was constantly spinning out his restricted gears. Just mind-bogglingly strong. That doesn't in any way mean that Pogacar was pure crap, or that he wasn't a top talent. He just wasn't the best. Not the best ever, not the best of this century, not the best of his generation, not even the best of his year. But definitely still good.

 

[Salvarani]

Ah, classic internet arguments and pretending like nuance doesn't exist. There's a pretty significant gap between saying he has no talent whatsoever and saying he's a Merckx tier talent. It's perfectly reasonable to call someone out for claiming he's literally the biggest talent in 50 years when he wasn't even the best junior of his generation. Even his teammate Hirschi, who is exactly the same age as him, was on a completely different level as a teenager. Sure, the fact that he's from Slovenia might play a part in his late development, but even if you compare him only to other Slovenians of a similar age his results do not indicate the sort of domination we've seen from him this season.

How anyone can say Pogacar is the biggest talent in the peloton, let alone the biggest talent in decades, is beyond me when Evenepoel exists. He had only ridden seriously for two years and was crushing everyone by minutes in every race he entered, and the only reason he wasn't even more dominant was that he was constantly spinning out his restricted gears. Just mind-bogglingly strong. That doesn't in any way mean that Pogacar was pure crap, or that he wasn't a top talent. He just wasn't the best. Not the best ever, not the best of this century, not the best of his generation, not even the best of his year. But definitely still good.

He is definitely the best based on both talent and results, lol.

And regarding Remco, how is THAT not even more suspicious? That he just started to crush? Lmfao.

 

[ppanther92]

Well the thing is that this isn't true. His not even the biggest talent of the current pro peloton.

Yes, because there is Remco who arguably had the best Junior results ever. Pogacar's youth results are stellar in all objective aspects though. Who would you name with better results in the current peloton that is not named Remco? In Pogacar's favor you can potentially even add that he rode for a local team and not a fancy WT Development team, where, in my view, riders struggle a bit more to improve further since their training is already pretty much maxed out.

How anyone can say Pogacar is the biggest talent in the peloton, let alone the biggest talent in decades, is beyond me when Evenepoel exists. He had only ridden seriously for two years and was crushing everyone by minutes in every race he entered, and the only reason he wasn't even more dominant was that he was constantly spinning out his restricted gears. Just mind-bogglingly strong. That doesn't in any way mean that Pogacar was pure crap, or that he wasn't a top talent. He just wasn't the best. Not the best ever, not the best of this century, not the best of his generation, not even the best of his year. But definitely still good.

Same as above. And ofc Pogacar was easily the best of his year. Won Avenir at 19 (beating Arensman, Gall, Vlasov, Almeida - so pretty much similar competition as now), finished 5th at Tour of Slovenia at 18, 4th at 19 - in both instances beating WT climbers. Even his 3rd at the Vuelta (although already at UAE), can be considered a Junior result at the age of 20. Again, name a rider (other than Remco who probably had the best Junior results ever) that has scored better in the U21 category. I clicked through current GC contentenders and found non. Actually by far.

Remark on Evenepoel: he obviously is a tremendous talent. He rarely raced super mountainous races though. First mountain success he showed was rather San Juan and Burgos on WT level at age 20. That doesn't mean I doubt he could have dominated them as well as in the Junior ranks (Junior WC title in Salzburg indicated that quite clearly) but rather that Pogacar actually has maybe the even better pedigree in races with multiple mountain stages at that age. Anyway, purely from Junior results any rider would lose the comparison to Evenepoel.

General remark on talent transition: you obviously have no GTs for juniors, so recovery is not tested. You obviously have no classics for Juniors, so stamina is not tested. You rarely have multi mountain stages (outside Avenir or Baby Giro), so that is not tested much. Then you have non-linear developments of body. Some mature earlier, some later. Then you have the above mentioned WT-standard development teams where training, nutrition, and material is already very very professional. While other race for local teams and can potentially make bigger jumps still. Than you have the greatest talents like Evenepoel and Pogacar going Pro or racing Pro races already, while they could still ride in the Junior ranks. And last, but not least - who says Junior racing is clean? So personally, I don't see Junior results as proof of destined greatness. They matter but they have limitations.

Disclaimer in the end: I don't think you win the Tour, let alone break climbing records on bread and water. But its weird if an argument is built around that Pogacar was some Junior packfodder. Thats absurd and simply not true.

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

How anyone can say Pogacar is the biggest talent in the peloton, let alone the biggest talent in decades, is beyond me when Evenepoel exists. He had only ridden seriously for two years and was crushing everyone by minutes in every race he entered, and the only reason he wasn't even more dominant was that he was constantly spinning out his restricted gears. Just mind-bogglingly strong. That doesn't in any way mean that Pogacar was pure crap, or that he wasn't a top talent. He just wasn't the best. Not the best ever, not the best of this century, not the best of his generation, not even the best of his year. But definitely still good.

Likewise you could say: what are Junior results worth as an indicator for talent, when Popovych exsits?
My main issue with your argument is, that there are plenty of examples of Riders maturing differently and there is a reason one has to wait and see how they do at professional level to find out what their actual possibilities are.
So he's not an all time great Junior, but why would an all time great have to be this? Humans mature differently, that Evenepoel was so dominant when he was young only really tells us that his body developed early. How that's relative to his actual talent (as a grown up) is an open question imo. Evenepoel came out of the very professionalised world of youth football into the probably also very professional world of Junior racing in Belgium, while Pogacar probably had relatively worse conditions when he rose through the ranks, living and riding in small Slovenian teams.

Which is not to argue that Pogacar is the greatest talent since Merckx, but that I don't believe the "who has the biggest talent" question can be solved by looking at Junior results. And it's not that Pogacar was off the pace there, like ranked lowely or not showing results. Same when he rose into the U23, which is how I became aware of him for the first time, reading about what's currently going on at that Level in 2017/2018. So it's strange to me when some people (don't mean you) basically act as if he was Vingegaard.

 

[Slavique Nuke]

Olympics have brought in a different anti-doping agency (AFLD) this year, not ITA/WADA.

ITA works with AFLD just like they did during the Tour de France. More nonsense from the conspiracy theorists.

Is he though? If UAE are as dirty as they smell he definitely isn't. He didn't show anything before joining that team that indicated that he'd get this good. Evenepoel is easily the biggest talent I've ever seen in cycling if we're going by results before joining a pro team.

Yeah, troll... Pogacar finished fifth in the Tour of Slovenia at the age of 18, winning the most prestigious junior race, and a year later at the age of 19, he finished fourth in the Tour of Slovenia, beating many of the more mature and quality WT riders who were fighting for Grand Tour victories and he won the most prestigious u23 race. But of course, that's nothing compared to Remco, who has been farming out wins in mickey mouse u18 races all these years.

[[deleted: personal attack]]

 

[ppanther92]

Likewise you could say: what are Junior results worth as an indicator for talent, when Popovych exsits?

Even with a rider like Popovych, who was considered a super-talent (and most likely doped as Junior already), Pogacar easily outperforms him based on points scored under-21: https://www.procyclingstats.com/rider-vs-rider/yaroslav-popovych/tadej-pogacar (as he does with every rider I ever looked at, apart from Remco obviously). So again, I just don't get the point of claiming he was not a wonderkid. And thats before the points you rightly outline come into play that make Junior results an indicator with limitation.

 

[Saint Unix]

He is definitely the best based on both talent and results, lol.

Only if you look at what he did after Gianetti took him under his wing. I'm looking at the mulitple years of racing he did before that.

Let's do a little head-to-head comparison:
2015: Hirschi beat Pogacar in 13 out of 16 races they raced together. In those races
- Hirschi won one race (GP General Patton). He also finished top 10 in both the Euro and World junior road races and the Euro junior TT
- Pogacar failed to podium and had one top 10 on a stage in a race he finished 74th overall

2016: Hirschi beat Pogacar in 14 out of 16 races they raced together. In those races
- Hirchi had two wins (Tour du Pays de Vaud and Trofeo Emilio Paganessi) and five additional podiums
- Pogacar had one podium, a 3rd place in the European Champs junior road race

2017: Hirchi beat Pogacar in 8 out of 9 races they raced together. In those races
- Hirschi had one podium, a 3rd in the European Champs U23 road race
- Pogacar failed to podium

So that's three full years of racing, and out of the 36 times they've been at the starting line together, Hirschi has placed higher 30 times, or a cool 83.3% if you prefer percentages. In addition, Hirschi is 5 for 5 in stage race GCs. Then comes 2018 where Hirschi placed higher in literally every one day race they raced - the U23 Euro Championship road race (which Hirschi won) and time trial, the U23 world championships (which Hirschi also won, while Pogacar's 7th was his best result in a one day race against Hirschi for the year) and the youngster editions of both Ronde van Vlaanderen and Gent-Wevelgem. Pogacar was admittedly far better in stage races, including l'Avenir which he won.

After 2018, of course, Pogacar joins UAE and starts pounding World Tour opposition in his first year, but if you looked at that head-to-head without knowing their names and were told that, before they turned 26, one of those riders would go on to win Liege-Bastogne-Liege, Ronde van Vlaanderen, Il Lombardia three times and Strade Bianche twice and one of those riders would win three Tours de France and one Giro d'Italia, what are the odds you'd say Pogacar is both of them?

And regarding Remco, how is THAT not even more suspicious? That he just started to crush? Lmfao.

Again, we're looking at what he was doing before he was even contracted to a pro team. I might be naïve, but I find it unlikely that a junior rider is able to find the golden formula of insane performance boosts that go undetected in testing without the backing of a professional programme, which is why I find pre-pro contract result so much more interesting when judging talent. No doubt Lefevere have been doping his guys for decades at this point, but Evenepoel's results were consistently dominant long before he'd decided to even sign for them, let alone get the benefits of any sort of doping programme, and remained equally dominant for the remainder of the year after the signing was announced in July 2018.

 

[Stablo]

He is definitely the best based on both talent and results, lol.

Just like Lance was in his time. Poggie is of course more ridicilous. It's getting annoying with these [[deleted]] appologists being here in the clinic, the only place where you can discus, yes doping related topics. For example Salvarani is just laughing here at reasonable and well argumented messages, [[deleted]]a. Poggie is more suspicious than even Lance was, on a (doping)program of next level. There's no proof yet, but neither there was on Lance and many others.

Tried to be polite towards you [[deleted]]. Even without this seasons extraterrestial level of domination, I would have hard time believing Teddy-boy is pure and innocent. The teams backround is enough, they havent all the sudden turned honest on their practices, now that they have the unlimited petro financing backing them.

Its an arms race for sure, but they(UAE🤢) really have pushed beyond others/limits this season and there's no way around it.

 

[Salvarani]

Yes, because there is Remco who arguably had the best Junior results ever. Pogacar's youth results are stellar in all objective aspects though. Who would you name with better results in the current peloton that is not named Remco? In Pogacar's favor you can potentially even add that he rode for a local team and not a fancy WT Development team, where, in my view, riders struggle a bit more to improve further since their training is already pretty much maxed out.

Same as above. And ofc Pogacar was easily the best of his year. Won Avenir at 19 (beating Arensman, Gall, Vlasov, Almeida - so pretty much similar competition as now), finished 5th at Tour of Slovenia at 18, 4th at 19 - in both instances beating WT climbers. Even his 3rd at the Vuelta (although already at UAE), can be considered a Junior result at the age of 20. Again, name a rider (other than Remco who probably had the best Junior results ever) that has scored better in the U21 category. I clicked through current GC contentenders and found non. Actually by far.

Remark on Evenepoel: he obviously is a tremendous talent. He rarely raced super mountainous races though. First mountain success he showed was rather San Juan and Burgos on WT level at age 20. That doesn't mean I doubt he could have dominated them as well as in the Junior ranks (Junior WC title in Salzburg indicated that quite clearly) but rather that Pogacar actually has maybe the even better pedigree in races with multiple mountain stages at that age. Anyway, purely from Junior results any rider would lose the comparison to Evenepoel.

General remark on talent transition: you obviously have no GTs for juniors, so recovery is not tested. You obviously have no classics for Juniors, so stamina is not tested. You rarely have multi mountain stages (outside Avenir or Baby Giro), so that is not tested much. Then you have non-linear developments of body. Some mature earlier, some later. Then you have the above mentioned WT-standard development teams where training, nutrition, and material is already very very professional. While other race for local teams and can potentially make bigger jumps still. Than you have the greatest talents like Evenepoel and Pogacar going Pro or racing Pro races already, while they could still ride in the Junior ranks. And last, but not least - who says Junior racing is clean? So personally, I don't see Junior results as proof of destined greatness. They matter but they have limitations.

Disclaimer in the end: I don't think you win the Tour, let alone break climbing records on bread and water. But its weird if an argument is built around that Pogacar was some Junior packfodder. Thats absurd and simply not true.

Great post, which explained it perfectly.

 

[Salvarani]

Likewise you could say: what are Junior results worth as an indicator for talent, when Popovych exsits?
My main issue with your argument is, that there are plenty of examples of Riders maturing differently and there is a reason one has to wait and see how they do at professional level to find out what their actual possibilities are.
So he's not an all time great Junior, but why would an all time great have to be this? Humans mature differently, that Evenepoel was so dominant when he was young only really tells us that his body developed early. How that's relative to his actual talent (as a grown up) is an open question imo. Evenepoel came out of the very professionalised world of youth football into the probably also very professional world of Junior racing in Belgium, while Pogacar probably had relatively worse conditions when he rose through the ranks, living and riding in small Slovenian teams.

Which is not to argue that Pogacar is the greatest talent since Merckx, but that I don't believe the "who has the biggest talent" question can be solved by looking at Junior results. And it's not that Pogacar was off the pace there, like ranked lowely or not showing results. Same when he rose into the U23, which is how I became aware of him for the first time, reading about what's currently going on at that Level in 2017/2018. So it's strange to me when some people (don't mean you) basically act as if he was Vingegaard.

You bring up very good and interesting points here.

 

[Shakes]

People misunderstand talent, especially in a sport like cycling. Unfortunately it is widespread.

Some people develop really quickly. However, it does not mean their plateau is the highest. Others develop more slowly but consistently over the years and can reach a higher plateau. Who is the most talented? Most people say number one, I'd argue it's number two. Here implicitly number two is called a Doper, just because earlier he/she was at a lower level. Which is ridiculous and completely misunderstands development and talent.

Not withstanding, I can't really be interested in cycling anymore since they are hitting 7wk/g for 40 minutes which is deemed beyond impossible. Unless someone can convince me it is possible I'll be on sidelines.

 

[Slavique Nuke]

Funny how the dude lists all the random results except the most prestigious u23 race

Hirschie was riding in the development team of one of the top WT teams at that time. A team that transformed a member of Kittel's sprint train into a Giro winner and Tour contender. While Pog was in a poor Slovenian conti team on weird Taiwanese bikes

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

Imagine thinking that Dopacar is clean.

It's like a grown man believing in Santa Claus.

Embarrassing.

You are mixing up different questions. We were discussing if talent can be judged on junior results, not if Pogacar is clean. The question so is rather not that if he is clean (I don't know who's posted in the thread recently does so except for one or two), but if he is a generational talent, clean or not. The argument that he isn't based on Junior results doesn't work, as has been laid out.