Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[awavey]

Pogacar has never been that great in the immediate races post Tour, last year being the first time he ever did well in the WCRR. I didn’t expect him to contest the Olympics seriously even given his recent dominance. But pulling out in this fashion is always a bit fishy.

well dont forget he was also very critical recently of the Slovenian federation for not picking Urksa to ride at the Olympics, and her agent, who is also Tadejs agent, labelled the Slovenian coach who made that choice "unprofessional".

So it may be a tactical kind of power snub as much as anything, unless they can resurrect a bruised and battered Roglic, it pretty much kills their chances of winning a medal

 

[Skalman]

Yes the testing is not bound to cykling in the Olympics and is rigorous so no protection there, I don't think cycling can afford Pogacar to test postive, it would cause such a great backlash and put cykling back years of popularity

 

[Monoxidator]

Victor Conte on the Olympics:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2op5XG7LGkI

Such a good video ... for these doctors and labs it's a game to see what they can get away with.

 

[E_F_]

it pretty much kills their chances of winning a medal

The Tratnik and Mohoric disrespect!!!!

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

Yes the testing is not bound to cykling in the Olympics and is rigorous so no protection there, I don't think cycling can afford Pogacar to test postive, it would cause such a great backlash and put cykling back years of popularity

Indeed. I think the major lesson that was learned from going to battle with doping was, that it's not worth the trouble. All you achieve is bad press and the basic problem does not go away. You may be able to achieve a more level playing field, but this might just be an equality in well established doping methods that work within the limits of your regime, that at some point is figuered out by everyone more or less. With a more pessimistic look at the slow era I think that might have been what happened, which made the switch to whatever is new easy. I mean it's somewhat curious that we got used to really small gaps btw, that doesn't fit the historical data at all I think, and got me thinking that they might just have been all pretty good at doing the possible, legal or not, in that time.

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

If it hasn't been posted already: https://escapecollective.com/opinion-we-cant-yet-explain-tadej-pogacars-sudden-leap/

 

[zlev11]

If it hasn't been posted already: https://escapecollective.com/opinion-we-cant-yet-explain-tadej-pogacars-sudden-leap/

this is excellent

 

[Monoxidator]

Indeed. I think the major lesson that was learned from going to battle with doping was, that it's not worth the trouble. All you achieve is bad press and the basic problem does not go away. You may be able to achieve a more level playing field, but this might just be an equality in well established doping methods that work within the limits of your regime, that at some point is figuered out by everyone more or less. With a more pessimistic look at the slow era I think that might have been what happened, which made the switch to whatever is new easy. I mean it's somewhat curious that we got used to really small gaps btw, that doesn't fit the historical data at all I think, and got me thinking that they might just have been all pretty good at doing the possible, legal or not, in that time.

I disagree that it's not worth it... tell all the parents of kids in sports whether they want their child getting involved with shady characters and gray moral areas just to compete with all the other kids that are doing it. None are going to say "it's not worth it" ... the only ones to say that are the people profiting with the status quo.

What they don't realize is that it's better to take a couple of small losses than one massive one. The money involved in cycling isn't even that big compared to other sports ... it's like grasping at pennies when there's paper around the corner for "doing good." And the doctors who are involved? They need to get their licenses revoked.

 

[Invicituz]

If it hasn't been posted already: https://escapecollective.com/opinion-we-cant-yet-explain-tadej-pogacars-sudden-leap/

That's a great read ...

 

[LesDiablesRouges]

Why exactly? I get the part about the testing regime, but it's not that they'd not known this from the beginning, and the "he can't do it after Giro and Tour" argument, would've served them before the Tour as well. So I wouldn't jump to conclusions. And I am not making an argument for him being clean here, just to avoid misunderstandings.

There are a million and one things that can happen that are bad luck that can prevent you from competing so to skip it is a massive red flag.

The Olympics are a big deal because they occur only once in four years and its importance has increased because pros weren't allowed up until the last 24 years.

6 road race champions
Jan Ullrich
Paolo Bettini
Samule Sanchez
Alexander Vinokourov
Greg Van Avermaet
Richard Carapaz.

You are lucky if you get 3 shots at a medal.

In theory he would 2-3 more shots, altough I doubt he's riding at 37 so that leaves at 29 and 33.

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

I disagree that it's not worth it... tell all the parents of kids in sports whether they want their child getting involved with shady characters and gray moral areas just to compete with all the other kids that are doing it. None are going to say "it's not worth it" ... the only ones to say that are the people profiting with the status quo.

What they don't realize is that it's better to take a couple of small losses than one massive one. The money involved in cycling isn't even that big compared to other sports ... it's like grasping at pennies when there's paper around the corner for "doing good." And the doctors who are involved? They need to get their licenses revoked.

I wasn't stating my personal opinion on it, but rather what I think was learned by those who run the sport.

The question is if competitive sports are the area to look for if you don't want your kids to maybe get into the situation that they are faced with the question of not being able to compete, or use. I don't think the most athletes want to dope, but I do believe that the incentive to do so is very high, already when you only have the strong suspicion that your opponent is using enhancement methods.

There's a lot of things that can be done differently I am sure of, but I don't think you can get a cat back into the bag, that's out there on it's own without the need for anyone in the sport having to invest in it. Namely medical science and the pharma industry. The possibility will always linger to use PEDs, so will the uncertainty about if your opponent is playing fair. That's outside of the control of any sports organizing body. The mechanics of uncertainty, doubt, suspicion and competition will result in an incentive to use whatever means necessary to be able to compete.

All that can be done, and should be done, imo, is to continue to do what is possible to mitigate the effects of these mechanics and manage them. But it won't die.

 

[Nick2413]

Doping might be necessary in the pros but I wouldn’t keep my kid out of a sport because the top 1% of the 1% dope. It’s really not an issue unless they’re trying to go pro

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

Doping might be necessary in the pros but I wouldn’t keep my kid out of a sport because the top 1% of the 1% dope. It’s really not an issue unless they’re trying to go pro

Yes but I think wasn't that the scenario talked about? At least that what I was aiming for. There's a lot of PED use in amateur sports as well though. People do this for all sorts of reasons, maybe just to beat their neighbor or to impress the folks at the gym with a bench press.

A friend of mine used to do weightlifting before she came to Germany as a teenager, and she was administered steroids which deeply *** up her hormone system. That was way before there was any ideas of even becoming an olympic athlete or anything like this.

Once you're in a setup in which you want to be able to continue your successful path there's danger of doping imo.

Also: it need not be necessary for the incentive to be there. Because of the secrecy of it all, it can become a self fulfilling prophecy easily. You just gotta believe you are at a disadvantage because others are using PEDs to have an incentive.

Edit about Kids and in competitive sports:
Dopings really not the issue I'd go for either. But I'd have a very close look at the coaching environment and would pay attention to their methods. I remember being shocked for example, when I witnessed clearly incompetent coaches completely going nuts on 10 year 10-12 yo, yelling and screaming at them, making them do some punishment exercises etc., just for the crime of not competing well enough in a so-called non competitive football league. Basically punishing them for their the coache's obvious failure. And that wasn't the exception that was the rule. Almost every game we played that would happen, because we were lucky to win them all but one (3:3 draw after 0:3 down in the first game). They'd of course ridicule their players as well, while being overly dramatic in painting their inadequacy.
I'd keep a kid far away from that kind of ***.
I guess this kind of stuff isn't (hopefully) the norm anymore in a lot of places, but I think it's still widespread.

 

[SHAD0W93]

7 road race champions
Pascal Richard
Jan Ullrich
Paolo Bettini
Samule Sanchez
Alexander Vinokourov
Greg Van Avermaet
Richard Carapaz.

 

[Rob5091]

Pogacar not doing the Olympics is not unexpected but the excuse of him having "extreme fatigue" after being as fresh as a daisy (as the saying goes) after the TT on Sunday, was a LOL moment.

 

[Monoxidator]

Pogacar not doing the Olympics is not unexpected but the excuse of him having "extreme fatigue" after being as fresh as a daisy (as the saying goes) after the TT on Sunday, was a LOL moment.

Looked like he could do another tour the following day

 

[Extinction]

i watched every single second of his podcast this tour and he never once insinuated he was doping lol

He did by way of saying you gotta be political, which implies doping, for if he's clean there is no need to be politically correct.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

He did by way of saying you gotta be political, which implies doping, for if he's clean there is no need to be politically correct.

He also said don't make others hate you clearly refering to his own experiences. Armstrong was busted not because of some positive test but because of the way he treated people around him. I think he realizes his own mistakes: he paid for being a jerk.

 

[ppanther92]

The world goes mad. One of the largest Austrian newspapers - and trust me, there usually cycling is a niche topic - published an article on @mou:

Tour-Champion PogaÄar: Was ein Möchtegern-Maulwurf mit Dopingfragen zu tun hat

Ein anonymer Insider hat die Leistungsexplosion des Slowenen schon im Frühling erstaunlich detailliert vorhergesagt. "Mou" liefert eine dankbare Erklärung und will von Doping nichts wissen

www.derstandard.at

What a world we live in…

 

[QueenStagiaire]

So sad that Pogačar can‘t participate in the Olympics, but it‘s obviously because he‘s doping. Lucky for us, Mr. Clean Remco Evenepoel will show up as the best clean cyclist and excite the masses.

 

[topcat]

Skipping the Olympics because of extreme fatigue of whooping ass.

 

[Extinction]

He also said don't make others hate you clearly refering to his own experiences. Armstrong was busted not because of some positive test but because of the way he treated people around him. I think he realizes his own mistakes: he paid for being a jerk.

Well Pogacar doesn't need to be a jerk, just a nice smiley guy who eats porridge, the petrol dollars will take care of the rest. Meanwhile UAE incarcerates Bangladesh residents for life protesting against their gov. And this is where cycling gets it's sponsorship? Obscenity goes beyond obscenity.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

So sad that Pogačar can‘t participate in the Olympics, but it‘s obviously because he‘s doping. Lucky for us, Mr. Clean Remco Evenepoel will show up as the best clean cyclist and excite the masses.

Mathieu van der Poel will show us that he rode the Tour without getting any kind of fatigue.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Well Pogacar doesn't need to be a jerk, just a nice smiley guy who eats porridge, the petrol dollars will take care of the rest.

 

[Penninepeddler]

is it the testing regime or what happens with the samples taken afterwards ?

as I remember back in 2012 chatting to a USADA doctor/tester on a tube train to Stratford, as you do, terribly unBritish of me I know, but its the craziness of being in a host city for an Olympics. But the two things he was confident on were there were almost certainly people doping at the Olympics, (which he was right about) even though that seemed a shocking thing to say, but that they would also be caught...maybe not that day but eventually they would (which he was also right about).

and by that he meant how they might not have the tests or accuracy to test in the moment, and an athlete might pass and all seem well, but they store the samples for a number of years, it was 8 years then, its now 10 years.

So 10 years from now they can go back and test all the samples from Paris again, with technology and science thats 10 years advanced from now, and if it picks up anything that means you actually fail, you maintain the same legal consequence of failing as if youd failed the day of the competition.

I dont know if TdF store 10 years worth of drug tests, just in case, or theyre destroyed once theyve all been checked and passed

The TdF is also 10 years... has been for the last 3 years.

BUT it is not every sample that is stored. Just a "selection" of them. No idea about number, how decided on, if random etc... or if store say jersey winners etc.

It is also ITA, same people who store and re-test Olympic samples.