Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Froome]

This I can mostly agree with 🤝but I still am sure Pogacar and his team has in a similar way higher/stronger/better program as Lance had in his days. That's were the super season(s) are coming from. Not that he is soooo much better than his peers of riders.

I would also like to hear as @Low is rhe new high mentioned if there is speculation of something new. That is not available for everyone yet. The rebreather is an obvious one of suspicion, Poggie first telling he doesnt know what it is and the inconsistents on the teams explanations. Maybe something else is also there that we havent still heard of.

Probably UAE had the best programm this year...or at least they have a programm similar with the quality of Visma, but Visma had a lot of bad luck this year.

Nevertheless, let's not act teams like Quick step are not with a good program.

I saw the perfomances of a guy like Landa in this Tour and the guy averaged 428 Watts etalon in the Tour 2024. He was doing 6.3 w/kg during 40 minutes on Isola 2000.

He was in the shape of his life and with 34 years he improved probaby 5 % and he was doing perfomances in 40 minutes similar with what Vingegaard did 2 years ago.

Jorgenson didn't had bad luck and could benefit at 100% from Visma programm, and look what he improved.

Unfortunately due to bad luck, Vingegaard could not improve(if he improved something in reality) what was expected and natural looking at the improvements of others riders, otherwise he would be close to the 7 w/kg in 40 minutes this year in the Tour. It was a shame because he was already much stronger in the spring comparing with previous years.

 

[Monoxidator]

It's going to be an interesting couple of seasons coming up... either the arms race continues or someone finally steps in and says "enough's enough"

 

[Stablo]

I believe it's an arms race between UAE and Visma-LAB (with other teams further behind). This year UAE is winning but in the last two years Visma-LAB was ahead (as far as stage-racing is concerned).

Yeah this is actually very true for stage racing. Oh the excitment while waiting for the Vuelta to see if its Del Toros turn or not😉

 

[Shakes]

Ineos are probably more a case of the people higher up the hierarchy of the team having other things on their mind. They are not as invested. Their program might have not been updated in a while. Didnt Dennis allude to this sort of stuff when the switched to Jumbo-Visma?

I dont think that makes them "more clean". Feels like the wrong choice of words to describe. It is more a case of being further behind, rather than more clean.

Lidl and Bora has just found themselves some deeper pockets, but are likely behind on the know-how or how-to. It will take them some time to bridge the gap. They are making moves though. Besides Roglic... they also got the coach from Visma, who had been working closely with Van Aert and others. Lipowitz form!

Lidl was doing great in the spring. Until they suffered a couple of crashes towards the end of it. Milan, Styuven (btw how good did he climb on Stage 20 of the Tour) and Pedersen. Ciccone had his best GC-result in the TdF. The younger guys Skjelmose and Nys... but perhaps more ominously.... very soon... Albert Withen Philipsen.

You put Froome Sky on the same level as Gianetti and things like Saunier Duval? I don't but good that opinions differ. Sky had it's issues and crossed some lines but they seem more grey rather than the black Gianetti has ventured in. In sports, light shades of grey are acceptable (and is expected). Dark grey and black are not and should be fought against.

 

[Monoxidator]

Yeah this is actually very true for stage racing. Oh the excitment while waiting for the Vuelta to see if its Del Toros turn or not😉

Del Toro will be next season most likely. If he comes in and drops 7w / kg watt bombs in the Vuelta ... that's probably a bridge too far for even Giannetti. I'm sure they could tune him up to do it, but he hasn't even had the excuse of hiring a new trainer yet!

 

[Stablo]

Combloux TT is still the most outlier performance of all time.

True that was a big outlier, but Poggies full season so far has been one massive outlier.

 

[Salvarani]

You put Froome Sky on the same level as Gianetti and things like Saunier Duval? I don't but good that opinions differ. Sky had it's issues and crossed some lines but they seem more grey rather than the black Gianetti has ventured in. In sports, light shades of grey are acceptable (and is expected). Dark grey and black are not and should be fought against.

Eh, I feel like you cant say one is more "clean" than the other on matters like this. Definitely not saying things like "acceptable", if you are to be able to have any sort of credibility in accusations and stance on it. You cant pick just one team. Thats disingenuous.

Like we dont know exactly what they are doing or what they have done. What any team is doing. The consequences that riders may suffer from later. Both psychically and mentally.

Gianetti has his own story. We dont need to go more into detail about that.

Sky aint definitely no angels or more "good" than the above. There is a whole story unravelling there.

 

[Low is rhe new high]

So basically utilizing as big percentage of VO2max as possible in the maximal lactate steady state. This is a plausible explanation of 6.9 w/kg on a long PdB climb (which is a very high percentage of what we think is the max. aerobic effort). But how to make your metabolism work so efficiently? (besides high-quality training)

The other explanation (i.e. some blood enhancers making VO2max fly to 100) seems way more likely to be detected but who knows what is going on?

According to https://velo.outsideonline.com/road...ghest-weve-ever-seen-in-professional-cycling/ Pogacars has an ftp of close to 7 w/kg then only way to explain that is that he has access to more oxygen then before for longer time. If you believes this is ca 10% improvement as discussed before here he goes from ca 6,3 to ca 7 in one year.

How does he do this?

 

[snipeheem]

To not tackle the 7wkg for 40 minutes, which was deemed impossible to do clean, the topic of this thread remains very important: Why would the best cyclist in the world which do it clean remain riding for Gianetti? Why would he extend after having won the tour? He can ride for any team. Plenty could afford him. He is not a junior anymore happy to have a contract and a chance to proof himself. He has proven himself. According to himself clean. Why remain at UAE? The stench of that team is just huge. If he cares about records and legacy, why does he accept that stench on him still? That to me is, another, give away.

Despite claims on this forum, Ineos, Lidl, Bora, are all cleaner choices. At least to my optics.

8 million dollars + bonus

 

[Nick2413]

It's going to be an interesting couple of seasons coming up... either the arms race continues or someone finally steps in and says "enough's enough"

If there’s actually anything dangerous about this stuff, it might take a heart attack to slow them down

 

[Froome]

If there were any major innovations, they should have happened during the 2010-2019 period. Because that is when Sky pulled cycling out of the Dark Ages, so we were told by the "experts" at the time. But that period was stable according to these data, without even a marginal increase. But now we are supposed to believe that a rider who was already the best, and way above anything from the aforementioned period, increased his performance by like another 10% in a year due to "better training".

That's not even gaslighting, that's just telling you to eat s hit.

Fanboys.

 

[Cookster15]

Combloux TT is still the most outlier performance of all time.

Below is a reminder of the claim for those here who might doubt, by Tom Dumoulin. On his recent comments this Tour, Tom is obviously still cut up that Roglic lost the 2020 TdF after all the great work Dumo did that edition.

Best ever in cycling, a 58Kg climber compared to 78Kg TT monster Indurain, LOL. And this wasn't just achieved through better descending but pure power as admitted by Vingegaard himself:

The 26-year-old admitted he did not believe his own power data at points during the ride, such was his staggering output

'Best time trial ever' – Dumoulin hails Vingegaard after stunning win

Tom Dumoulin hailed Jonas Vingegaard's time trial as the "best ever in cycling" after the Dane obliterated the field on Stage 16 at the 2023 Tour de France.

www.eurosport.com

So of course Pogacar is doping, how could he not be. But that's because we are in a two team arms race.

In 2020 Jumbo Visma became the new Sky - but their lead rider was Primoz Roglic who was cheated out of the 2020 TdF title by UAE (according to them). Visma were fortunate that they uncovered a super responder in Vingegaard who could beat Pogacar. Ventoux 2021 gave a strong clue and then 2022 and 2023 confirmed this. For 2024 Gianetti planned to get the title back. He went for broke - the Giro Tour double. Many said it was an admission of defeat by Pogacar. But nobody predicted Vingegaard's April crash which was equally responsible for Pog's dominance this July as doping.

It takes two to tango.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Even the Lanterne Rouge is being accused of doping.

And of being full-on corrupt.

 

[Froome]

Even the Lanterne Rouge is being accused of doping.

Of course they are doped, especially Naichaca. He is really "high" when he does the calculations, and that stupid crap of "perfomance in sea level".

 

[QueenStagiaire]

Probably UAE had the best programm this year...or at least they have a programm similar with the quality of Visma, but Visma had a lot of bad luck this year.

Nevertheless, let's not act teams like Quick step are not with a good program.

I saw the perfomances of a guy like Landa in this Tour and the guy averaged 428 Watts etalon in the Tour 2024. He was doing 6.3 w/kg during 40 minutes on Isola 2000.

He was in the shape of his life and with 34 years he improved probaby 5 % and he was doing perfomances in 40 minutes similar with what Vingegaard did 2 years ago.

Jorgenson didn't had bad luck and could benefit at 100% from Visma programm, and look what he improved.

Unfortunately due to bad luck, Vingegaard could not improve(if he improved something in reality) what was expected and natural looking at the improvements of others riders, otherwise he would be close to the 7 w/kg in 40 minutes this year in the Tour. It was a shame because he was already much stronger in the spring comparing with previous years.

Just a side note, who the hell normalizes to 70 kilos for climbing performances?

 

[SHAD0W93]

Of course they are doped, especially Naichaca. He is really "high" when he does the calculations, and that stupid crap of "perfomance in sea level".

Wait till Naichaca peaks and does below sea level calculations. Those Mariana trench calculations are going to go hard.

 

[Froome]

Just a side note, who the hell normalizes to 70 kilos for climbing performances?

This is the calculations of Frederic Portoleau.

It's just a choice, i guess. Ammattipyoraily does for 65 kg.

 

[Low is rhe new high]

Below is a reminder of the claim for those here who might doubt, by Tom Dumoulin. On his recent comments this Tour, Tom is obviously still cut up that Roglic lost the 2020 TdF after all the great work Dumo did that edition.

Best ever in cycling, a 58Kg climber compared to 78Kg TT monster Indurain, LOL. And this wasn't just achieved through better descending but pure power as admitted by Vingegaard himself:

'Best time trial ever' – Dumoulin hails Vingegaard after stunning win

Tom Dumoulin hailed Jonas Vingegaard's time trial as the "best ever in cycling" after the Dane obliterated the field on Stage 16 at the 2023 Tour de France.

www.eurosport.com

So of course Pogacar is doping, how could he not be. But that's because we are in a two team arms race.

In 2020 Jumbo Visma became the new Sky - but their lead rider was Primoz Roglic who was cheated out of the 2020 TdF title by UAE (according to them). Visma were fortunate that they uncovered a super responder in Vingegaard who could beat Pogacar. Ventoux 2021 gave a strong clue and then 2022 and 2023 confirmed this. For 2024 Gianetti planned to get the title back. He went for broke - the Giro Tour double. Many said it was an admission of defeat by Pogacar. But nobody predicted Vingegaard's April crash which was equally responsible for Pog's dominance this July as doping.

It takes two to tango.

What has this to do with Pogacar doing 7 w /kg for 40 min. Can you or Dumolin explain how this is possible?

 

[Cookster15]

What has this to do with Pogacar doing 7 w /kg for 40 min. Can you or Dumolin explain how this is possible?

An arms race as I mentioned. If Dumoulin’s team didn’t play its part I very much doubt that we’d be seeing 7 w / Kg for 40 minutes.

 

[Froome]

Wait till Naichaca peaks and does below sea level calculations. Those Mariana trench calculations are going to go hard.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1813754893741756904

View: https://x.com/looflol/status/1813754893741756904


I think this will be the new calculations in the future!

 

[Low is rhe new high]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1813754893741756904

View: https://x.com/looflol/status/1813754893741756904


I think this will be the new calculations in the future!

What does this mean? Are carbonoxide equal to molar oxygen? How does this relate to Vo2max? Are this official test results?

 

[Barkintheeye]

If there’s actually anything dangerous about this stuff, it might take a heart attack to slow them down

A continued arms race between several teams will eventually lead to detection and someone will go down just as happened with Armstrong and Pantani. It took Il Pirata’s life and expelled Armstrong for a long time. It also took a lot of bad will to cycling and loss of sponsors. I fear we’re in for some harsh times.

 

[cnort]

If there’s actually anything dangerous about this stuff, it might take a heart attack to slow them down

Like happened with EPO? The deaths maybe just helped understand dosing. Would a team risk killing a golden goose? I presume they'd be careful. Maybe that's why it's taken a few seasons to get to the current madness, slowly upping the regimens.

 

[Saint Unix]

What does this mean? Are carbonoxide equal to molar oxygen? How does this relate to Vo2max? Are this official test results?

That would be nothing but razor-sharp satire of cycling's "grey area" substance abuse disguised as your average analysis of a climbing performance on Twitter. 0% scientific, 0% accurate, 100% hilarious.

 

[pastronef]

No one not even close to Poggie, who looked like having a Sunday ride when demolishing all the other top guys. I don't like Vinge that much either, but on thing about him brought joy to me. After 20&21 Tours I was like here we freaking go again, Lance&Froomie bs all over again, but Vinge brought some hope or at least there was not again only one super doper/responder. After Gianetti&Poggie upped the antes for this year, I'm starting to lose hope on cycling again.

Im so sure that UAE/Poggie/Gianetti/Matxin combo are on a similar way higher doping scheme as Lance&Us Postal and Froomie&Sky was, that I would be willing to bet a lot of money on it. If there only was a way for us average fans to find out. Visma has maybe been close, but at least for this season its not the case anymore.

This is starting to be frustrating on the level that im hoping some other teams to up their game too. On a level playing field Poggie is never ever so far a head of the competition as he has been this year. Not a slightest chance and nothing is going to change my or I'm sure many others mind on this.

you have no idea what you're wishing. IMAGINE the speed Pogacar would have climbed if Vingo held on to his wheel for 4-5 more kms on Beille or Isola and Pog actually had to go over his limits and fall to the ground gasping for air after the finish line