Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Stablo]

Pogacar won his 2nd Tour de France while still being 22 yo. He's the 2nd youngest TdF winner and the youngest ever double TdF winner. If you think his development is too late then feel free to question all champions in cycling history.

BTW: I absolutely realize that when cyclists join top teams they get a good training (and good doping) program. Not only Pogacar OFC.

Nope I didnt say that it was too late. But nevermind I have explained my point and my opinion of Poggie multiple times. In my book he is there just a bit above Lance, cause of a nicer personality. The team behind him lowers my image of him considerably.

I actually think one of the biggest signs of an serious D-program is the fact that you stated there. Very fast and with huge leaps in performance after juniors and straight to dominating the pro peloton. Then they found almost 10% more for this season, lol. In away agrees with my point, that we very rarely see those kind of jumps in the level of an athlete(compared to ones peers) in other sports.

 

[Psycat]

I think winning GCs takes both of those as well as several other things.

"Great talent" is a pretty wide umbrella. I think a rider's mental state is a big part of it, his dedication to training and diet, how he responds to coaching and his director, bike handling, etc. Lots of things that doping can't really help.

I think also that beyond just doping methods (or "how much") is how a rider responds to the methods. It seems that some riders perform pretty well despite some of their physiological metrics being on the low side for a pro rider. VOmax, hematocrit level, and OBLA are ones I have seen mentioned the in the past. The theory I have read is that riders who do well despite not having world class numbers for these continue that follow that curve when PEDs are used to improve them.

In modern cycling the definition of "generational talent" has to include being a generational responder to doping.

Yes I should, probably, have been more clear. How he responds to the hypothetical fuel is also important and impossible to measure. How much does he gain in relation to, say, Evenepoel and do they have access to the, exact, same cocktail?

Over the last couple of pages people have debated if he is a mega talent or not(he is certianly a mega talent and likely a mega responder for what it's worth, unless he is a cyborg or riding on e-bike of course) like it would excuse doping if he was? I strongly question that mentality. Like if someone is able to achieve something without shortcuts does that automatically means taking shortcuts is ok? While if someone can't they shall just accept that and not take any shortcuts? Makes little sense to me. In that case why not let the "most talented" rider use a motorbike since he would win anyway?

Now of course it's all speculation since no one in here can be 100% certain he is doping unless there is tangible evidence, so far there are only clear indications. Let's just say that as someone who followed this circus since the Armstrong years I know what I would put my money, if not house, on.

 

[Monoxidator]

Just like clinic comments isn't allowed in the main forum how about not spamming the clinic with fandom rivalry? 🙄

This clinic enthusiast just been drowning in fanwars for 5+ pages. Like 🙃

Yeah if fanboys are allowed to come in here and say "everyone's doping, our guy is just super talented" then ... we should be able to say "too good to be true" on the slobbering forum.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Nope I didnt say that it was too late. But nevermind I have explained my point and my opinion of Poggie multiple times. In my book he is there just a bit above Lance, cause of a nicer personality. The team behind him lowers my image of him considerably.

I actually think one of the biggest signs of an serious D-program is the fact that you stated there. Very fast and with huge leaps in performance after juniors and straight to dominating the pro peloton. Then they found almost 10% more for this season, lol. In away agrees with my point, that we very rarely see those kind of jumps in the level of an athlete(compared to ones peers) in other sports.

Well, I actually agree with you regarding this year, the leap is large (on some climbs 5-8%). It's also true that some other guys from top three teams in this Tour were super fast on some climbs compared to the previous years (hypothetical new fuel-X).

 

[Peyroteo94]

Nope I didnt say that it was too late. But nevermind I have explained my point and my opinion of Poggie multiple times. In my book he is there just a bit above Lance, cause of a nicer personality. The team behind him lowers my image of him considerably.

I actually think one of the biggest signs of an serious D-program is the fact that you stated there. Very fast and with huge leaps in performance after juniors and straight to dominating the pro peloton. Then they found almost 10% more for this season, lol. In away agrees with my point, that we very rarely see those kind of jumps in the level of an athlete(compared to ones peers) in other sports.

For me the biggest is clearly an unknown and average rider become a world beater in his late 20's (27-30). Froome is the obvious answer... I could say the same about all Sky riders, Porte, Wiggins, Thomas... Pogacar won Tour de l'Avenir, this is a sign of talent, rather we like it or not. No one here is claiming he is not doping, we are just claiming Pogacar always was an outlier talent, not the biggest one at all (that is Remco) but no one can claim he was average because he wasn't, he was very good.
Other thing very important to mention is his country. Slovenia is a small country and not attached to cycling like big cycling countries (Belgium, France, Italy, Danmark, Spain, etc) so Pogacar probably never had professional training like the training french/italian/etc riders have in their respective countries since early age.

 

[Low is rhe new high]

Just like clinic comments isn't allowed in the main forum how about not spamming the clinic with fandom rivalry? 🙄

This clinic enthusiast just been drowning in fanwars for 5+ pages. Like 🙃

It is difficult for anyone to seriously discuss Pogacar outside the clinic. But it would be more interesting to discuss what he is on. Is there anyone that heard something about mRNA PEDs . If the covid vaccines was such a sucess it should be possible to make the body express a protein that stimulate rbc growth?

 

[Shakes]

To not tackle the 7wkg for 40 minutes, which was deemed impossible to do clean, the topic of this thread remains very important: Why would the best cyclist in the world which do it clean remain riding for Gianetti? Why would he extend after having won the tour? He can ride for any team. Plenty could afford him. He is not a junior anymore happy to have a contract and a chance to proof himself. He has proven himself. According to himself clean. Why remain at UAE? The stench of that team is just huge. If he cares about records and legacy, why does he accept that stench on him still? That to me is, another, give away.

Despite claims on this forum, Ineos, Lidl, Bora, are all cleaner choices. At least to my optics.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

To not tackle the 7wkg for 40 minutes, which was deemed impossible to do clean, the topic of this thread remains very important: Why would the best cyclist in the world which do it clean remain riding for Gianetti? Why would he extend after having won the tour? He can ride for any team. Plenty could afford him. He is not a junior anymore happy to have a contract and a chance to proof himself. He has proven himself. According to himself clean. Why remain at UAE? The stench of that team is just huge. If he cares about records and legacy, why does he accept that stench on him still? That to me is, another, give away.

Despite claims on this forum, Ineos, Lidl, Bora, are all cleaner choices. At least to my optics.

UAE serves better porridge.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Pog fan here.
I don't want to go into Clinic material, but I don't believe any semi-serious TdF competitor races pan y agua.
If you're looking for some people who might fit that bill, I'd start with the Lanterne Rouge and work up like maybe 20, 30 places at most. That's just my impression.
Of course, some of these substances may not even be banned, though they may easily violate the spirit of the rule.
That said, I enjoyed this year's TdF anyway.

 

[Cookster15]

it should be possible to make the body express a protein that stimulate rbc growth?

That would trigger an adverse finding in the biological passport. The passport looks at variation in blood parameters compared to the rider's base-line.

A Closer Look: Athlete Biological Passport | USADA

The ABP is an important tool for anti-doping organizations. Here are answers to some commonly asked questions regarding the Athlete Biological Passport.

www.usada.org

Hematological biomarkers that are measured and can be used for blood profiling include hemoglobin, hematocrit, red blood cell count, reticulocyte number, reticulocyte percentage, mean corpuscular volume, mean corpuscular hemoglobin, mean corpuscular hemoglobin concentration and OFF-score.

 

[Low is rhe new high]

sorry double post

 

[Low is rhe new high]

That would trigger an adverse finding in the biological passport. The passport looks at variation in blood parameters compared to the rider's base-line.

A Closer Look: Athlete Biological Passport | USADA

The ABP is an important tool for anti-doping organizations. Here are answers to some commonly asked questions regarding the Athlete Biological Passport.

www.usada.org

Yeah right, they are obviously doing something on the metabolic side of thinks producing more atps they are maximizing the amount of carbs and will hav to max out on O2 available. Maybe always being on top of the bio passport is enough. The limiting factor is anyway O2. If they are not stabilizing heamatcrite values as high as possible and having no variance it is motors. But if it was motors there wouldn’t be so large differences since they would have access to basically the same technology.

 

[Salvarani]

To not tackle the 7wkg for 40 minutes, which was deemed impossible to do clean, the topic of this thread remains very important: Why would the best cyclist in the world which do it clean remain riding for Gianetti? Why would he extend after having won the tour? He can ride for any team. Plenty could afford him. He is not a junior anymore happy to have a contract and a chance to proof himself. He has proven himself. According to himself clean. Why remain at UAE? The stench of that team is just huge. If he cares about records and legacy, why does he accept that stench on him still? That to me is, another, give away.

Despite claims on this forum, Ineos, Lidl, Bora, are all cleaner choices. At least to my optics.

Ineos are probably more a case of the people higher up the hierarchy of the team having other things on their mind. They are not as invested. Their program might have not been updated in a while. Didnt Dennis allude to this sort of stuff when the switched to Jumbo-Visma?

I dont think that makes them "more clean". Feels like the wrong choice of words to describe. It is more a case of being further behind, rather than more clean.

Lidl and Bora has just found themselves some deeper pockets, but are likely behind on the know-how or how-to. It will take them some time to bridge the gap. They are making moves though. Besides Roglic... they also got the coach from Visma, who had been working closely with Van Aert and others. Lipowitz form!

Lidl was doing great in the spring. Until they suffered a couple of crashes towards the end of it. Milan, Styuven (btw how good did he climb on Stage 20 of the Tour) and Pedersen. Ciccone had his best GC-result in the TdF. The younger guys Skjelmose and Nys... but perhaps more ominously.... very soon... Albert Withen Philipsen.

 

[Stablo]

Well, I actually agree with you regarding this year, the leap is large (on some climbs 5-8%). It's also true that some other guys from top three teams in this Tour were super fast on some climbs compared to the previous years (hypothetical new fuel-X).

No one not even close to Poggie, who looked like having a Sunday ride when demolishing all the other top guys. I don't like Vinge that much either, but on thing about him brought joy to me. After 20&21 Tours I was like here we freaking go again, Lance&Froomie bs all over again, but Vinge brought some hope or at least there was not again only one super doper/responder. After Gianetti&Poggie upped the antes for this year, I'm starting to lose hope on cycling again.

Im so sure that UAE/Poggie/Gianetti/Matxin combo are on a similar way higher doping scheme as Lance&Us Postal and Froomie&Sky was, that I would be willing to bet a lot of money on it. If there only was a way for us average fans to find out. Visma has maybe been close, but at least for this season its not the case anymore.

This is starting to be frustrating on the level that im hoping some other teams to up their game too. On a level playing field Poggie is never ever so far a head of the competition as he has been this year. Not a slightest chance and nothing is going to change my or I'm sure many others mind on this.

 

[Cookster15]

Yeah right

So what are you saying, you don't know how the passport works?

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Im so sure that UAE/Poggie/Gianetti/Matxin combo are on a similar way higher doping scheme as Lance&Us Postal and Froomie&Sky was, that I would be willing to bet a lot of money on it. If there only was a way for us average fans to find out. Visma has maybe been close, but at least for this season its not the case anymore.

I believe it's an arms race between UAE and Visma-LAB (with other teams further behind). This year UAE is winning but in the last two years Visma-LAB was ahead (as far as stage-racing is concerned).

 

[Cookster15]

but Vinge brought some hope or at least there was not again only one super doper/responder.

Really? Vinge is one half the problem. There is an arms race. In case you missed it the Combloux TT last year was being claimed as the best time trial ever. Better than Miguel Indurain in the middle of the EPO era.

 

[Salvarani]

Really? Vinge is one half the problem. There is an arms race. In case you missed it the Combloux TT last year was being claimed as the best time trial ever. Better than Miguel Indurain in the middle of the EPO era.

Combloux TT is still the most outlier performance of all time.

 

[Stablo]

For me the biggest is clearly an unknown and average rider become a world beater in his late 20's (27-30). Froome is the obvious answer... I could say the same about all Sky riders, Porte, Wiggins, Thomas... Pogacar won Tour de l'Avenir, this is a sign of talent, rather we like it or not. No one here is claiming he is not doping, we are just claiming Pogacar always was an outlier talent, not the biggest one at all (that is Remco) but no one can claim he was average because he wasn't, he was very good.
Other thing very important to mention is his country. Slovenia is a small country and not attached to cycling like big cycling countries (Belgium, France, Italy, Danmark, Spain, etc) so Pogacar probably never had professional training like the training french/italian/etc riders have in their respective countries since early age.

This I can mostly agree with 🤝but I still am sure Pogacar and his team has in a similar way higher/stronger/better program as Lance had in his days. That's were the super season(s) are coming from. Not that he is soooo much better than his peers of riders.

I would also like to hear as @Low is rhe new high mentioned if there is speculation of something new. That is not available for everyone yet. The rebreather is an obvious one of suspicion, Poggie first telling he doesnt know what it is and the inconsistents on the teams explanations. Maybe something else is also there that we havent still heard of.

 

[Low is rhe new high]

I edited my previous post.

 

[Low is rhe new high]

So what are you saying, you don't know how the passport works?

I edited my previous post. If the passport works Everything is fine and this section of the forum should close.

 

[Stablo]

Really? Vinge is one half the problem. There is an arms race. In case you missed it the Combloux TT last year was being claimed as the best time trial ever. Better than Miguel Indurain in the middle of the EPO era.

Yes part of the problem for sure, but like I said at least there was just not one ultra dominant rider like in the super annoying Lance era. I thought it was clear in my message. Without Vinge Poggie would now have five ultra dominant Tour victories and yes it would be a lot worse, cause obviously they're not going to (or even trying) to catch these people.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Yeah right, they are obviously doing something on the metabolic side of thinks producing more atps they are maximizing the amount of carbs and will hav to max out on O2 available. Maybe always being on top of the bio passport is enough. The limiting factor is anyway O2. If they are not stabilizing heamatcrite values as high as possible and having no variance it is motors. But if it was motors there wouldn’t be so large differences since they would have access to basically the same technology.

So basically utilizing as big percentage of VO2max as possible in the maximal lactate steady state. This is a plausible explanation of 6.9 w/kg on a long PdB climb (which is a very high percentage of what we think is the max. aerobic effort). But how to make your metabolism work so efficiently? (besides high-quality training)

The other explanation (i.e. some blood enhancers making VO2max fly to 100) seems way more likely to be detected but who knows what is going on?

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

Yeah if fanboys are allowed to come in here and say "everyone's doping, our guy is just super talented" then ... we should be able to say "too good to be true" on the slobbering forum.

[MOD HAT ON)
No, you can't. Please don't.

 

[SHAD0W93]

Pog fan here.
I don't want to go into Clinic material, but I don't believe any semi-serious TdF competitor races pan y agua.
If you're looking for some people who might fit that bill, I'd start with the Lanterne Rouge and work up like maybe 20, 30 places at most. That's just my impression.
Of course, some of these substances may not even be banned, though they may easily violate the spirit of the rule.
That said, I enjoyed this year's TdF anyway.

Even the Lanterne Rouge is being accused of doping.