Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Monoxidator]

So I spent 15 minutes digging up the heart medication stuff from the podcast, and I found a class of drugs known as PDE inhibitors ... it's a wild field with dozens of different drugs, but there's definitely a few out there that would have effects on heart contractility and so forth. All of them have the side effects of causing heart failure sometimes.

Makes me think of Nathan van Hooydonck last year.

Other cyclists with heart problems the last few years (including deaths):
Michael Rogers, Johan Vansummeren, Gianni Meersman, Daan Myngheer, Gijs Verdick, Will Walker

 

[ppanther92]

Looking at PCS I think it's fair to say that Pogacar didn't stand out at all in a pretty untalented year of juniors. Loads of nobodies have won l'Avenir...

Then maybe we just have to agree that Junior results are a limited indicator of “natural” talent. Although I disagree that it was a weak year, quite good names in there (Arensmann, Mäder, Gall, Vlasov, Hirschi, …)

Just look at the best riders right now.
Vingegaard - was *** as Junior
Roglic - was a ski jumper as Junior
Remco - we have discussed this, obviously a great Junior

But if you think, Pogacar didn’t stand out at all, I would still be interested who you think did? Remco. Hirschi in the classics. Bernal maybe in the GCs (although success rather inly came at 20).

And also - I think not even for Merckx himself, anyone would have predicted a Merckx-like career in 1964 or 1965

 

[pastronef]

To not tackle the 7wkg for 40 minutes, which was deemed impossible to do clean, the topic of this thread remains very important: Why would the best cyclist in the world which do it clean remain riding for Gianetti? Why would he extend after having won the tour? He can ride for any team. Plenty could afford him. He is not a junior anymore happy to have a contract and a chance to proof himself. He has proven himself. According to himself clean. Why remain at UAE? The stench of that team is just huge. If he cares about records and legacy, why does he accept that stench on him still? That to me is, another, give away.

once again we MUST BE AWARE that what we see and think and have an opinion as fans from the outside is way different than what is seen, lived, thought and experienced inside the peloton by riders and people working inside the sport. there's no stench. there might be a bad legacy but it's how it works. they do not see the sport with our fans eyes. it's their job and it must be done whatever it takes.

 

[Low is rhe new high]

Ok

That would be nothing but razor-sharp satire of cycling's "grey area" substance abuse disguised as your average analysis of a climbing performance on Twitter. 0% scientific, 0% accurate, 100% hilarious.

Ok I honestly did not got the satire for me it sounded a lot like the same thing as a lot of mumbo jumbo that is discussed seriously like who was placed where in some obscure junior race at the age of 16.

 

[QueenStagiaire]

MvdP and WvA - no road races as Juniors

Damn, Van der Poel won the Worlds and some of the best Junior stage races like Rüebliland while riding next to the road the entire time? Incredible performances.

 

[ppanther92]

Damn, Van der Poel won the Worlds and some of the best Junior stage races like Rüebliland while riding next to the road the entire time? Incredible performances.

My bad, somehow had in mind he transitioned later to the road.

 

[ppanther92]

In my efforts to substantiate Tadej Pogačar's integrity in the 2024 Tour de France, I have meticulously examined official statements from race organizers and anti-doping agencies. Despite this, I have been unable to locate records of his independent testing. Could you provide information on the frequency of Tadej's tests? His performance this year has been exceptional.

After every stage, the stage winner and yellow jersey are tested. But don’t get your hopes too high that this proofs anything.

 

[SHAD0W93]

So I spent 15 minutes digging up the heart medication stuff from the podcast, and I found a class of drugs known as PDE inhibitors ... it's a wild field with dozens of different drugs, but there's definitely a few out there that would have effects on heart contractility and so forth. All of them have the side effects of causing heart failure sometimes.

Makes me think of Nathan van Hooydonck last year.

Other cyclists with heart problems the last few years (including deaths):
Michael Rogers, Johan Vansummeren, Gianni Meersman, Daan Myngheer, Gijs Verdick, Will Walker

Colbrelli was a heart issue as well.

 

[Saint Unix]

MvdP is a great example of a rider who dominated as a junior, and he did it even though he was so focused on CX that he had to opt for crap teams on the road that were willing to accommodate his CX racing schedule until he got too good for the top teams to pass up on. I'd rank him clearly above Pogacar as a junior, especially considering his dual focus at the time, although obviously a completely different type of rider. His Amstel miracle win in 2019 riding for effing Corendon, by the way, is Plateau de Beille levels of legendary.

Speaking of CX talents, Pidcock was magical as a junior too.

 

[Psycat]

Then maybe we just have to agree that Junior results are a limited indicator of “natural” talent. Although I disagree that it was a weak year, quite good names in there (Arensmann, Mäder, Gall, Vlasov, Hirschi, …)

Just look at the best riders right now.
Vingegaard - was *** as Junior
Roglic - was a ski jumper as Junior
Remco - we have discussed this, obviously a great Junior

But if you think, Pogacar didn’t stand out at all, I would still be interested who you think did? Remco. Hirschi in the classics. Bernal maybe in the GCs (although success rather inly came at 20).

And also - I think not even for Merckx himself, anyone would have predicted a Merckx-like career in 1964 or 1965

Yes but Pogacar is not only better than the cyclists you mention, except Vinegaard, he demolishes them so bad they look like amateurs.

If he was indeed as talented as his performance he would make the other juniors look like they stand still.

It's not like we are arguing over someone winning a couple of stages or a GT here, he is arguably the best cyclist of all time in almost all terrain beating another very suspect wonder like it was nothing and he is barely tired afterwards.

Now of course people develop differently but you know they can also start to dope earlier, being a talent as a junior could be the same as being a dope from an early age. Iv'e had dubious acquaintances who got on the roids around 16 at the gym with no intentions of making a career out of it.

Anyway fact remains, Pogacar is one of the most dominant cyclists of all time(on that we can all agree?). The question is why and how. The weirdest thing for me is that I am very certain he wasn't even close to his limit at the Tour(and of course not the Giro). We are talking humongous degrees of separation from the next best rider, granted Vingegaard was clearly affected by his crash, and Vingegaard himself is highly suspect to say the least.

 

[Froome]

What the hell is happening in the other part of the forum where now Lance Armstrong is a legend? Is the other part of the forum now a parallel universe?

 

[E_F_]

But if you think, Pogacar didn’t stand out at all, I would still be interested who you think did?

I was wrong about it being not being a pretty talented year, but not every year has a generational talent (per definition). Remco was doing the kind of stuff you'd expect of a generational talent - if you assume that talent shows during the juniors, which I'm not sure about, to be fair.

 

[Pannenkooky]

That's interesting. The answer to why Pog has become too tired to participate?

I'm sure that is a tiny part of it

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

Just a side note, who the hell normalizes to 70 kilos for climbing performances?

Probably someone who started doing this when Tour winners used to weigh something around 70kg +/- 2.

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

What the hell is happening in the other part of the forum where now Lance Armstrong is a legend? Is the other part of the forum now a parallel universe?

According to David Chalmers, when you get high enough, everything, even if it is is totally artificial, is a real reality, that we don't get lost in, but that can substitute for real reality. Add on top of that the decision to interpret modal logic ontically, you can be assured, it somehow is a parallel universe.

 

[Ripper]

Eh, I feel like you cant say one is more "clean" than the other on matters like this. Definitely not saying things like "acceptable", if you are to be able to have any sort of credibility in accusations and stance on it. You cant pick just one team. Thats disingenuous.

Like we dont know exactly what they are doing or what they have done. What any team is doing. The consequences that riders may suffer from later. Both psychically and mentally.

Gianetti has his own story. We dont need to go more into detail about that.

Sky aint definitely no angels or more "good" than the above. There is a whole story unravelling there.

Comparing Sky and their hilarity to the incredible degree of blatant cheating that Gianetti has been directly guilty of, or influencing through team leadership, does not make a lot of sense.

Regardless of how you feel about Sky/Ineos, Gianetti and Matxin's legendary tales of corruption are much worse. They should not be involved in bike racing.

And why can't you pick teams that stand out? Isn't that one of the reasons people pick on the vlab laboratory experiments? Or people wonder about how S/QS used to be such a unbeatable classics team?

 

[repoman]

So I spent 15 minutes digging up the heart medication stuff from the podcast, and I found a class of drugs known as PDE inhibitors ... it's a wild field with dozens of different drugs, but there's definitely a few out there that would have effects on heart contractility and so forth. All of them have the side effects of causing heart failure sometimes.

Makes me think of Nathan van Hooydonck last year.

Other cyclists with heart problems the last few years (including deaths):
Michael Rogers, Johan Vansummeren, Gianni Meersman, Daan Myngheer, Gijs Verdick, Will Walker

Vaccine.
Moderna was the worst for causing heart damage and was most popular in Europe.

 

[Saint Unix]

Vaccine.
Moderna was the worst for causing heart damage and was most popular in Europe.

Every single rider mentioned had their issues years before Covid was even a thing and van Hooydonck's issue was likely congenital. Stop fearmongering with baseless claims.

 

[jono]

MvdP is a great example of a rider who dominated as a junior, and he did it even though he was so focused on CX that he had to opt for crap teams on the road that were willing to accommodate his CX racing schedule until he got too good for the top teams to pass up on. I'd rank him clearly above Pogacar as a junior, especially considering his dual focus at the time, although obviously a completely different type of rider. His Amstel miracle win in 2019 riding for effing Corendon, by the way, is Plateau de Beille levels of legendary.

Speaking of CX talents, Pidcock was magical as a junior too.

Hasn't MVDP been on the same team, with different title sponsors, for his whole career?

As for Amstel, surely a miraculous win, although a half dozen other riders closed the same gap that he did while Alaphilippe and Fuglsang dicked around.

 

[Monoxidator]

Vaccine.
Moderna was the worst for causing heart damage and was most popular in Europe.

lol. Most of these issues were pre Covid. Glad you “did your research”

 

[Extinction]

View: https://youtu.be/duniLXVa4vs?si=FNltin5UfVD6cYrF

 

[Stablo]

you have no idea what you're wishing. IMAGINE the speed Pogacar would have climbed if Vingo held on to his wheel for 4-5 more kms on Beille or Isola and Pog actually had to go over his limits and fall to the ground gasping for air after the finish line

True that lol. Maybe then someone would have blown the whistle. After this years sh*t show, it would have been only a bit more absurd to the see the two mutants going even more faster 😅

 

[ppanther92]

I was wrong about it being not being a pretty talented year, but not every year has a generational talent (per definition). Remco was doing the kind of stuff you'd expect of a generational talent - if you assume that talent shows during the juniors, which I'm not sure about, to be fair.

Ok, thanks. Agreed on that.

 

[Low is rhe new high]

So I spent 15 minutes digging up the heart medication stuff from the podcast, and I found a class of drugs known as PDE inhibitors ... it's a wild field with dozens of different drugs, but there's definitely a few out there that would have effects on heart contractility and so forth. All of them have the side effects of causing heart failure sometimes.

Makes me think of Nathan van Hooydonck last year.

Other cyclists with heart problems the last few years (including deaths):
Michael Rogers, Johan Vansummeren, Gianni Meersman, Daan Myngheer, Gijs Verdick, Will Walker

What is the gain? An higher max pulse or is it in combination with GH as grow your heart and still make Tyson a stable pulse? Or is it to maintain a steady low pulse during rest?

 

[Bolder]

Hasn't MVDP been on the same team, with different title sponsors, for his whole career?

As for Amstel, surely a miraculous win, although a half dozen other riders closed the same gap that he did while Alaphilippe and Fuglsang dicked around.

He pulled them all, though, and still won the sprint.. Yeah, Alaf and Fugl messed around but if you saw it live it was still incredible.