Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Rechtschreibfehler]

[[deleted material]] you pout that you turn of your tv cause he win when the rider you cheer for(allegedly doped too from you but that would be okei for you says it all doesnt it?-- if you was even able to admit why and you dont want him to win or your tired of he wins it all okei its logical would at least be a reason to this now its just comical and laughable - but whatever makes you cope with your feelings I guess..

And boy wonder is raising cycling to new levels wether or not you like that its irrelevant isnt it? He is the best cyclist weve seen what you do with that I hardly doubt anyone cares, the public and rating havent been higher and its mostly to do with the boy wonder. Again just facts dont blame the messenger.

[[deleted material]]

Pogacar fan here:
I'd like to be oblivious to it, but some things are just to hard to ignore. Injury here, injury there, of course it had an impact on him last year, but the jump in performance, really not just by him at all, is quite startling. And it's not that this is a clinic theory, it's an acknowledged fact, established by the riders themselves who are through the bank talking of doing their best ever numbers. And forget about the 90ies and the comaprisons with them, that we are comparing it to the 90ies is in itself a red flag, but Pogacar is pushing like almost 1w/kg more on long climbs than what used to be competitive just some years ago. All of this can easily be looked up and the watts calculations that are out there are accurate enough for Vingegaard to call some of them "very accurate" in the context of having pushed his best ever numbers.
So I wonder: what do you make of this? Minutes faster than the records from the 90ies, minutes not seconds. An improvement of gigantic magnitude by not just Pogacar. Performance differences within the race itself that don't make any sense (not a clinic perspective, watched LR recently and they didn't say anything about doping but basically also said they have no idea what's going on, it's all over the place and doesn't make sense given what used to be true).
There's got to be an explanation to it and it logically can't be new science and training methods, because that doesn't explain why the performance plateau of lager parts of the Peloton has made an already insane jump last year, and an otherworldly one on top of that this year.
This can all be easily read out of readily available data published by news sources, not a single clinic theorist is needed for that.
Like Derek Gee is outperforming peak Froome, and to say Pogacar and Vingegaard "outperform" Froome (who is the more relevant comparison than Armstrong/Pantani/Ullrich/Indurain, because there is a greater equivalence in methods and material) doesn't do them justice. They've transcended peak Froomes abilities to an extent that they seem to exist on a different plane of cycling existence altogether.
Natura non facit saltus! Nature does not make jumps! is a guiding principle that seems to get violated here. The principle has stood the time from Aristotle to Darwin, more than 2000 years. So does nature jump all of a sudden?

Edit: a ban, just when I was asking a question! Sad!

 

[Pannenkooky]

Just wondering...will one day people look back at Pogi and say he's selfish, only thought of himself, etc like things that were said about Lance? He seemed well liked in the peloton, anyone know if that shifted at all with the end of this TDF? I understanding winning is winning but he isn't getting called Cannibale 2.0 for nothing--almost kicking Vingo when he's down. So will he be derided in the future?

 

[Krzysztof_O]

@Pannenkooky

This year won't help Pogi regarding popularity, that's for sure. In the previous 2 years at least he was defeated in July so the impression was different. This year he wins almost everything he wants and in an absolutely dominant fashion on top of that. Some teams weren't happy about him winning so many stages at the Giro (there was some talk about sharing the pie). At the Tour the situation was a bit different (he took away stages from Visma-LAB mostly) but UAE was responsible (at least partially) for chasing down breakaways of course.

 

[BullsFan22]

Just wondering...will one day people look back at Pogi and say he's selfish, only thought of himself, etc like things that were said about Lance? He seemed well liked in the peloton, anyone know if that shifted at all with the end of this TDF? I understanding winning is winning but he isn't getting called Cannibale 2.0 for nothing--almost kicking Vingo when he's down. So will he be derided in the future?

When did he ‘almost kick Vingo when he’s down.’ Vingo never crashed or had a mechanical problem during the tour. Are you saying that because Vingo wasn’t as good this year because of the spring crash and therefore Pog should have been more kind and didn’t need to attack him so often?

 

[Cookster15]

@Pannenkooky

This year won't help Pogi regarding popularity, that's for sure. In the previous 2 years at least he was defeated in July so the impression was different. This year he wins almost everything he wants and in an absolutely dominant fashion on top of that. Some teams weren't happy about him winning so many stages at the Giro (there was some talk about sharing the pie). At the Tour the situation was a bit different (he took away stages from Visma-LAB mostly) but UAE was responsible (at least partially) for chasing down breakaways of course.

I hope Pogacar doesn’t get busted for being perceived as greedy. Someone shared the below documentary of Marco Pantani here a while ago. One theory mentioned of Pantani's demise (I think it is mentioned towards the end) was that Marco got greedy after he won the Giro-Tour double in 1998 and some people in the sport (or not in the sport?) weren’t happy that he wanted more. So he was snared with the failed haematocrit test after Madonna di Campiglio at the 1999 Giro.

Accidental Death of a Cyclist

 

[ppanther92]

You had better get ready: next year's edition may be the most thermonuclear ever.

Yes, fully expecting this as well. And where it goes from there - who knows… But ofc UAE and Pogacar will have in their mind that Vingegaard stayed relatively close against the best Pogacar ever, coming back from injury. And Visma and Vingegaard saw that previous Tour winning numbers are not good enough to win against this version of Pogacar. So the arms race will be open.

 

[ppanther92]

Just wondering...will one day people look back at Pogi and say he's selfish, only thought of himself, etc like things that were said about Lance?

You realize this things are said about Lance for totally different things than winning against Ullrich, right?

 

[Cassirer]

Yes, fully expecting this as well. And where it goes from there - who knows… But ofc UAE and Pogacar will have in their mind that Vingegaard stayed relatively close against the best Pogacar ever, coming back from injury. And Visma and Vingegaard saw that previous Tour winning numbers are not good enough to win against this version of Pogacar. So the arms race will be open.

If we say that riders are aware of what happens (and they must be at least to some degree) maybe them getting scared will put a cap on the arms race. Of course there will always be riders willing to sacrifice their health for winning, but I can see especially a family guy like vinge say at some point "nope, that's just not worth it" and be done with it. Dumoulin comes to mind.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

If we say that riders are aware of what happens (and they must be at least to some degree) maybe them getting scared will put a cap on the arms race. Of course there will always be riders willing to sacrifice their health for winning, but I can see especially a family guy like vinge say at some point "nope, that's just not worth it" and be done with it. Dumoulin comes to mind.

The family man didn't hesitate to go from zero form to 6.7 w/kg on PdB in 8 weeks and his family didn't prevent him from displaying one of the most thermonuclear TTs of all time (Combloux last year).

 

[Cassirer]

The family man didn't hesitate to go from zero form to 6.7 w/kg on PdB in 8 weeks and his family didn't prevent him from displaying one of the most thermonuclear TTs of all time (Combloux last year).

I agree, the past does not give much indication towards him pulling the plug. Just saying I wouldn't find such a realisation too surprising, especially after this tour ("I did all this and it wasn't enough!? F it"). Obviously we won't be able to know anyways.

 

[Pannenkooky]

You realize this things are said about Lance for totally different things than winning against Ullrich, right?

I am aware of what things are said about Lance. He's an ***, he's a narcissist. What I've noticed about Pogi is most of his wins are due to solo attacks not group tactics...that I'm aware of.

 

[Pannenkooky]

When did he ‘almost kick Vingo when he’s down.’ Vingo never crashed or had a mechanical problem during the tour. Are you saying that because Vingo wasn’t as good this year because of the spring crash and therefore Pog should have been more kind and didn’t need to attack him so often?

Stage 11 and all the ruthless attacking. Sure you don't "let someone else have a turn." And at the same time, I think that ruthless behavior gets noticed in the peloton. Merckx was called Cannibale, not something nicer

 

[Pannenkooky]

@Pannenkooky

This year won't help Pogi regarding popularity, that's for sure. In the previous 2 years at least he was defeated in July so the impression was different. This year he wins almost everything he wants and in an absolutely dominant fashion on top of that. Some teams weren't happy about him winning so many stages at the Giro (there was some talk about sharing the pie). At the Tour the situation was a bit different (he took away stages from Visma-LAB mostly) but UAE was responsible (at least partially) for chasing down breakaways of course.

The popularity thing, that's exactly what I'm getting at.

 

[Pannenkooky]

Another thought, what do you think is going through the minds of WADA right now? Shut up and don't ruin anything?

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Stage 11 and all the ruthless attacking. Sure you don't "let someone else have a turn." And at the same time, I think that ruthless behavior gets noticed in the peloton. Merckx was called Cannibale, not something nicer

I don't think Pogacar owes to Vingegaard and Visma anything else than ruthless attacking. As for other lesser riders, that's a different story of course.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Another thought, what do you think is going through the minds of WADA right now? Shut up and don't ruin anything?

Heavily depends on what's actually going on. Just old blood methods mastered to perfection or something completely new. Maybe they don't know themselves!

 

[Cookster15]

Another thought, what do you think is going through the minds of WADA right now? Shut up and don't ruin anything?

What was going through their minds in 2022 and 2023? Was anyone asking how a rider with an unremarkable palmeres in June 2021 suddenly beats Pogacar who everyone thought was unbeatable in 2021?

 

[Monoxidator]

What was going through their minds in 2022 and 2023? Was anyone asking how a rider with an unremarkable palmeres in June 2021 suddenly beats Pogacar who everyone thought was unbeatable in 2021?

WADA is impotent and can't catch anything of any sophistication.

 

[Cookster15]

WADA is impotent and can't catch anything of any sophistication.

Agree, and so is the UCI. That's how both Visma and UAE have gotten away with it. Now the other teams will be playing catch up.

 

[Pannenkooky]

Agree, and so is the UCI. That's how both Visma and UAE have gotten away with it. Now the other teams will be playing catch up.

100% agree

 

[Cookster15]

The other thing we are forgetting here are the lawyers. My understanding is that lawyers are what has diluted the effectiveness of the UCI biological passport. The classic example was Juan Cobo. Won the 2011 Vuelta (ahead of Froome). But Cobo wasn’t snared by UCI passport anomalies until 2019. 8 years is absurd. An effective deterrent would have caught him the day after that Vuelta. Like an EPO or steroids test. Another example were the plasticizers detected in Contador’s blood at the 2010 TdF. Not admissible evidence according to the lawyers, when that most likely indicated reinfusing his own blood. Instead Contador was nailed for a trace substance with no minimum limit.

The onus of proof for the biological passport seems set too high. It seems easier to convict criminals of murder than to nail athletes who, via team doctors, are in all likelihood manipulating their blood* to maximise aerobic endurance.

*I’ve asked in the Clinic recently what is being used to achieve the levels we are seeing. The general consensus still seems to be oxygen vector doping - blood manipulation. I don’t believe they are using a new drug or substance. Any such drug or substance would be susceptible to detection and also possible retrospective testing.

But I do think both UAE and Visma are pushing the limits of what they know they can legally get away with. Other teams will be working hard to catch up.

 

[SHAD0W93]

Bio passport took a big hit when Kreuziger successfully fought and won. Not many at the time thought Kreuziger had a chance.

 

[ppanther92]

Another thought, what do you think is going through the minds of WADA right now? Shut up and don't ruin anything?

Probably.

But under the hypothesis its indeed mainly Carbon Monoxide inhaling, there is literally also no way to test for it (apart from strange values in the bio passport - but in that see the next post. Seems to be a toothless tool nowadays)

 

[ppanther92]

Bio passport took a big hit when Kreuziger successfully fought and won. Not many at the time thought Kreuziger had a chance.

And TUE limits with Froome’s Salbutamol case.

But I agree, initially the bio passport had some cases (even higher profile) but this seems to be dead totally.

 

[Nomad]

The other thing we are forgetting here are the lawyers. My understanding is that lawyers are what has diluted the effectiveness of the UCI biological passport. The classic example was Juan Cobo. Won the 2011 Vuelta (ahead of Froome). But Cobo wasn’t snared by UCI passport anomalies until 2019. 8 years is absurd. An effective deterrent would have caught him the day after that Vuelta. Like an EPO or steroids test. Another example were the plasticizers detected in Contador’s blood at the 2010 TdF. Not admissible evidence according to the lawyers, when that most likely indicated reinfusing his own blood. Instead Contador was nailed for a trace substance with no minimum limit.

The onus of proof for the biological passport seems set too high. It seems easier to convict criminals of murder than to nail athletes who, via team doctors, are in all likelihood manipulating their blood* to maximise aerobic endurance.

*I’ve asked in the Clinic recently what is being used to achieve the levels we are seeing. The general consensus still seems to be oxygen vector doping - blood manipulation. I don’t believe they are using a new drug or substance. Any such drug or substance would be susceptible to detection and also possible retrospective testing.

But I do think both UAE and Visma are pushing the limits of what they know they can legally get away with. Other teams will be working hard to catch up.

The Cobo case is strange indeed. According to UCI Anti-Doping Tribunal report, the ABP hematological-anomalies occurred during both the 2009 & 2011 Vuelta, but were not reviewed & evaluated by the anti-doping expert panel until July, 2014

The 09 Vuelta showed a high OFF-score sequence while the 2011 Vuelta show variability of RET% - both at 99% specificity (less than 1 in 100 chance of being undoped). The expert panel concluded that in their opinion it was highly likely the anomalies were the result of the prohibited use of an ESA or method (transfusions).

According to the report, Cobo was sent an anti-doping rule violation notice in Aug, 2014 detailing the expert panel's findings, and given the opportunity to respond & offer an explanation. Typically athletes will try to explain the anomalies due to multiple reasons (e.g. altitude training/hypoxia exposure, dehydration, illness, prescription medication use, sample collection concerns, etc). This is where the expert panel will have to further evaluate & render a final decision - which can take quite a bit of time in many cases.

Cobo responded back with a list of explanations that needed to be reviewed. However, the report states that Cobo was "granted multiple extensions of deadlines failing to respond" where the Tribunal gave it's final decision not until 2019.

The report doesn't address the issue of the 3 year delay when the anti-doping experts evaluated the anomalies from the two Vueltas. Usually when there's an abnormal value or sequence of values on the ABP, it's immediately flagged by the system & forwarded to the anti-doping experts for evaluation. Why the anomalies weren't flagged during the Vueltas or why the delay if they were flagged is still a mystery.

Here's the UCI Tribunal hearing report (PDF). It's very interesting on the timeline & the sequence of the events that led to Cobo's ban & DQ of both the 2009 & 2011 Vuelta results:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://assets.ctfassets.net/761l7gh5x5an/5wlp6ONQYpW2Fr0oN5WD7i/1a40d70d92dd9c9cb9e346c190fd911b/uci-adt-03.2018-uci-v.-mr-juan-jos--cobo-acebo.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjw94PBtdaHAxX5DzQIHZnTHuMQFnoECBUQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1zzRk9HEMAMtYndZCLF68b