Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Venge 82]

Is Lugworm Blood The Next Doping Frontier? | Wild Air Sports

Haemoglobin extracted from lugworms could be a new doping substance for sports performance enhancement. Here is what we know.

wildairsports.com

Another interesting lecture...

 

[Saint Unix]

Is Lugworm Blood The Next Doping Frontier? | Wild Air Sports

Haemoglobin extracted from lugworms could be a new doping substance for sports performance enhancement. Here is what we know.

wildairsports.com

Another interesting lecture...

Is this Badzilla 2.0?

 

[Venge 82]

Is this Badzilla 2.0?

I have no idea who or what this is...

 

[Mr. 64%]

I have no idea who or what this is...

Bilharzia, a parasite that eats your red blood cells. Chris Froome supposedly had this parasite, and here in the Clinic, it quickly became known as "Badzilla"

 

[Cookster15]

And why can't you pick teams that stand out? Isn't that one of the reasons people pick on the vlab laboratory experiments?

I think you answered your own question? vlab stands out with flashing red lights. Why should other teams be suggested to validate the point? Remco rode his best grand tour by far and was best of the rest but still 3 minutes down on Vingegaard at the end.

Until PdB on stage 15, Visma seemed super confident bordering on arrogant that they had Pogacar’s measure again this year. And many times before the Tour they said Vingegaard wouldn't race if they didn't think he could win.

Vinge's w/kg this Tour were better than 2022 and 2023 when he won - despite the crash, despite all the injuries and despite the interrupted training. Vingegaard was every bit as absurd as Pogacar.

Seems obviously an arms race to me.

 

[Extinction]

I think you answered your own question? vlab stands out with flashing red lights. Why should other teams be suggested to validate the point? Remco rode his best grand tour by far and was best of the rest but still 3 minutes down on Vingegaard at the end.

Until PdB on stage 15, Visma seemed super confident bordering on arrogant that they had Pogacar’s measure again this year. And many times before the Tour they said Vingegaard wouldn't race if they didn't think he could win.

Vinge's w/kg this Tour were better than 2022 and 2023 when he won - despite the crash, despite all the injuries and despite the interrupted training. Vingegaard was every bit as absurd as Pogacar.

Seems obviously an arms race to me.

Pog doing these type of numbers since Strade Bianche on a team managed by Gianetti-Matxin is obscene and insulting to intelligence. If this continues I seriously will stop watching cycling.

 

[Stablo]

Pog doing these type of numbers since Strade Bianche on a team managed by Gianetti-Matxin is obscene and insulting to intelligence. If this continues I seriously will stop watching cycling.

I will do the same for the races Teddy participates, for the same reasons and if this continues. Olympics cycling im going to watch, cause Mr. Clean is not participating. I mean im sure there are some other dopers too, but nothing compared to monsters insanity.

 

[Extinction]

I will do the same for the races Teddy participates, for the same reasons and if this continues. Olympics cycling im going to watch, cause Mr. Clean is not participating. I mean im sure there are some other dopers too, but nothing compared to monsters insanity.

It's a message in support of dignity. Doubtless Pogacar is talented, but he's become so dominant with Gianetti-Matxin running the show that it doesn't even bear thinking about. And UAE petrol dollars backing the project, a nation which sentences foreigners to life for protesting against their own government, doesn't bear thinking about either. If this is contemporary cycling then I'm out.

 

[E_F_]

It's a message in support of dignity. Doubtless Pogacar is talented, but he's become so dominant with Gianetti-Matxin running the show that it doesn't even bear thinking about. And UAE petrol dollars backing the project, a nation which sentences foreigners to life for protesting against their own government, doesn't bear thinking about either. If this is contemporary cycling then I'm out.

You could say that your engagement with pro cycling is nearing its... Extinction.

 

[magliaroz]

Should we put a Hulk joke in the title since it seeme to be his official mascotte now? Or only Vingegaard gets the funny titles?

 

[Mex_17]

It's a message in support of dignity. Doubtless Pogacar is talented, but he's become so dominant with Gianetti-Matxin running the show that it doesn't even bear thinking about. And UAE petrol dollars backing the project, a nation which sentences foreigners to life for protesting against their own government, doesn't bear thinking about either. If this is contemporary cycling then I'm out.

Yeah, this is where I am at too. I love to watch cycling, and I get that everyone is doping to some degree. But what's going on with Pogacar is arguably way worse than the Armstrong era. I'm not going to waste 3-4 hours a day for 2-3 weeks, watching a farcical "competition" where Pog rockets away from the peloton to win 80% of the stages.

I normally watch 2+ hours of every stage of the Tour de France on replay every night, and this year, I watched maybe 5-6 hours total. I checked ahead if Pogocar won, and if he did, I didn't watch it. So that left the sprint stages, and I fast forwarded through most of those. Same with the Giro. I will watch the Vuelta, since he isn't in it.

To make matters worse, the TV coverage always gushes over how "incredible" he is, and of course, they would never even hint that something suspicious is going on. If the TV coverage was more honest, I may be able to take it better.

 

[Extinction]

Yeah, this is where I am at too. I love to watch cycling, and I get that everyone is doping to some degree. But what's going on with Pogacar is arguably way worse than the Armstrong era. I'm not going to waste 3-4 hours a day for 2-3 weeks, watching a farcical "competition" where Pog rockets away from the peloton to win 80% of the stages.

I normally watch 2+ hours of every stage of the Tour de France on replay every night, and this year, I watched maybe 5-6 hours total. I checked ahead if Pogocar won, and if he did, I didn't watch it. So that left the sprint stages, and I fast forwarded through most of those. Same with the Giro. I will watch the Vuelta, since he isn't in it.

To make matters worse, the TV coverage always gushes over how "incredible" he is, and of course, they would never even hint that something suspicious is going on. If the TV coverage was more honest, I may be able to take it better.

The thing is in the arms race Gianetti-Matxin know they are working with a super-responder who got destroyed by another super-responder at the previous two Tours and decided to take revenge by manipulating him further, and to such a degree, that he literally humiliates the whole peloton from March to (let's wait and see) October. This is no longer cycling but a ridiculous circus sideshow farce done with such arrogance and cynicism that it really doesn't even bear thinking about. That it's performed with Gianetti-Matxin behind the scenes is frankly revolting. I'm with you on this one. I've been involved in and an avid fan of the sport since the early eighties and it's rare that I didn't care about the last week of the Tour, lost total interest and stopped watching. And never with such apathy, boredom and indignation. Only when the Tour was in the grips of a certain Texan has there been anything similar to it. But Pogacar is even more off-putting with his contrived and wholly manipulative good-boy act. At least with Lance you knew straight up the guy was an a-hole. Evidently Gianetti-Matxin learned how not to behave from their previous wonderboy il Cobra Riccardo Ricco. But if someone like myself, who thoroughly enjoys watching cycling, gives up on the Tour in the third week out of sheer annuì and outrage, how is this good for the tele shares and hence the sport's commercial revenues?

 

[Krzysztof_O]

The thing is in the arms race Gianetti-Matxin know they are working with a super-responder who got destroyed by another super-responder at the previous two Tours and decided to take revenge by manipulating him further,

I think that's the key. Expect Vingegaard and Visma-LAB, with perfect preparation this time, to up the ante even further next year. Obviously Pogacar and UAE don't want to be behind. You had better get ready: next year's edition may be the most thermonuclear ever.

 

[Extinction]

I think that's the key. Expect Vingegaard and Visma-LAB, with perfect preparation this time, to up the ante even further next year. Obviously Pogacar and UAE don't want to be behind. You had better get ready: next year's edition may be the most thermonuclear ever.

Oh, I don't doubt it. But Vingegaard was putting out his best numbers after a hideous crash and still getting his head kicked in buy a guy last year who blew up trying to beat him and who's litterally been on a rampage, the most sensational I have ever seen, since Strade Bianche. The increase in performance? Well, just un-believable. Those Arab petrol dollars must give you wings indeed. Doubtless Visma, or whatever iteration of the team, surely has it's work cut out to put the balance back in it's favor.

 

[velaso montador]

I think that's the key. Expect Vingegaard and Visma-LAB, with perfect preparation this time, to up the ante even further next year. Obviously Pogacar and UAE don't want to be behind. You had better get ready: next year's edition may be the most thermonuclear ever.

Its actually no problem getting into top shape in 3 months. Problem is super rest in between to lay the base and thats for week 3 and thats it.

Lets look at the facts: Vingegaard will have the same coach he has had in Tim Heemskerk AND the same program he has had so its only a .... hope I would say but who knows but far from certain and most likely not that he can gain that much cause the leap is huge lets not kid ourself and not likely at all - its even more logical Pogacar would just increase it with only 1 year in with new coach, AND program and he is younger still only 25.

He is also tapped out in kg to lose semi. Just the bottom line. It is what it is I would look out for Evenpoel more if I was Vingegaard. But ofc course can always dream nothing wrong with that but far from likely.

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

[[deleted material]] you pout that you turn of your tv cause he win when the rider you cheer for(allegedly doped too from you but that would be okei for you says it all doesnt it?-- if you was even able to admit why and you dont want him to win or your tired of he wins it all okei its logical would at least be a reason to this now its just comical and laughable - but whatever makes you cope with your feelings I guess..

And boy wonder is raising cycling to new levels wether or not you like that its irrelevant isnt it? He is the best cyclist weve seen what you do with that I hardly doubt anyone cares, the public and rating havent been higher and its mostly to do with the boy wonder. Again just facts dont blame the messenger.

[[deleted material]]

Pogacar fan here:
I'd like to be oblivious to it, but some things are just to hard to ignore. Injury here, injury there, of course it had an impact on him last year, but the jump in performance, really not just by him at all, is quite startling. And it's not that this is a clinic theory, it's an acknowledged fact, established by the riders themselves who are through the bank talking of doing their best ever numbers. And forget about the 90ies and the comaprisons with them, that we are comparing it to the 90ies is in itself a red flag, but Pogacar is pushing like almost 1w/kg more on long climbs than what used to be competitive just some years ago. All of this can easily be looked up and the watts calculations that are out there are accurate enough for Vingegaard to call some of them "very accurate" in the context of having pushed his best ever numbers.
So I wonder: what do you make of this? Minutes faster than the records from the 90ies, minutes not seconds. An improvement of gigantic magnitude by not just Pogacar. Performance differences within the race itself that don't make any sense (not a clinic perspective, watched LR recently and they didn't say anything about doping but basically also said they have no idea what's going on, it's all over the place and doesn't make sense given what used to be true).
There's got to be an explanation to it and it logically can't be new science and training methods, because that doesn't explain why the performance plateau of lager parts of the Peloton has made an already insane jump last year, and an otherworldly one on top of that this year.
This can all be easily read out of readily available data published by news sources, not a single clinic theorist is needed for that.
Like Derek Gee is outperforming peak Froome, and to say Pogacar and Vingegaard "outperform" Froome (who is the more relevant comparison than Armstrong/Pantani/Ullrich/Indurain, because there is a greater equivalence in methods and material) doesn't do them justice. They've transcended peak Froomes abilities to an extent that they seem to exist on a different plane of cycling existence altogether.
Natura non facit saltus! Nature does not make jumps! is a guiding principle that seems to get violated here. The principle has stood the time from Aristotle to Darwin, more than 2000 years. So does nature jump all of a sudden?

Edit: a ban, just when I was asking a question! Sad!

 

[Pannenkooky]

Just wondering...will one day people look back at Pogi and say he's selfish, only thought of himself, etc like things that were said about Lance? He seemed well liked in the peloton, anyone know if that shifted at all with the end of this TDF? I understanding winning is winning but he isn't getting called Cannibale 2.0 for nothing--almost kicking Vingo when he's down. So will he be derided in the future?

 

[Krzysztof_O]

@Pannenkooky

This year won't help Pogi regarding popularity, that's for sure. In the previous 2 years at least he was defeated in July so the impression was different. This year he wins almost everything he wants and in an absolutely dominant fashion on top of that. Some teams weren't happy about him winning so many stages at the Giro (there was some talk about sharing the pie). At the Tour the situation was a bit different (he took away stages from Visma-LAB mostly) but UAE was responsible (at least partially) for chasing down breakaways of course.

 

[BullsFan22]

Just wondering...will one day people look back at Pogi and say he's selfish, only thought of himself, etc like things that were said about Lance? He seemed well liked in the peloton, anyone know if that shifted at all with the end of this TDF? I understanding winning is winning but he isn't getting called Cannibale 2.0 for nothing--almost kicking Vingo when he's down. So will he be derided in the future?

When did he ‘almost kick Vingo when he’s down.’ Vingo never crashed or had a mechanical problem during the tour. Are you saying that because Vingo wasn’t as good this year because of the spring crash and therefore Pog should have been more kind and didn’t need to attack him so often?

 

[Cookster15]

@Pannenkooky

This year won't help Pogi regarding popularity, that's for sure. In the previous 2 years at least he was defeated in July so the impression was different. This year he wins almost everything he wants and in an absolutely dominant fashion on top of that. Some teams weren't happy about him winning so many stages at the Giro (there was some talk about sharing the pie). At the Tour the situation was a bit different (he took away stages from Visma-LAB mostly) but UAE was responsible (at least partially) for chasing down breakaways of course.

I hope Pogacar doesn’t get busted for being perceived as greedy. Someone shared the below documentary of Marco Pantani here a while ago. One theory mentioned of Pantani's demise (I think it is mentioned towards the end) was that Marco got greedy after he won the Giro-Tour double in 1998 and some people in the sport (or not in the sport?) weren’t happy that he wanted more. So he was snared with the failed haematocrit test after Madonna di Campiglio at the 1999 Giro.

Accidental Death of a Cyclist

 

[ppanther92]

You had better get ready: next year's edition may be the most thermonuclear ever.

Yes, fully expecting this as well. And where it goes from there - who knows… But ofc UAE and Pogacar will have in their mind that Vingegaard stayed relatively close against the best Pogacar ever, coming back from injury. And Visma and Vingegaard saw that previous Tour winning numbers are not good enough to win against this version of Pogacar. So the arms race will be open.

 

[ppanther92]

Just wondering...will one day people look back at Pogi and say he's selfish, only thought of himself, etc like things that were said about Lance?

You realize this things are said about Lance for totally different things than winning against Ullrich, right?

 

[Cassirer]

Yes, fully expecting this as well. And where it goes from there - who knows… But ofc UAE and Pogacar will have in their mind that Vingegaard stayed relatively close against the best Pogacar ever, coming back from injury. And Visma and Vingegaard saw that previous Tour winning numbers are not good enough to win against this version of Pogacar. So the arms race will be open.

If we say that riders are aware of what happens (and they must be at least to some degree) maybe them getting scared will put a cap on the arms race. Of course there will always be riders willing to sacrifice their health for winning, but I can see especially a family guy like vinge say at some point "nope, that's just not worth it" and be done with it. Dumoulin comes to mind.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

If we say that riders are aware of what happens (and they must be at least to some degree) maybe them getting scared will put a cap on the arms race. Of course there will always be riders willing to sacrifice their health for winning, but I can see especially a family guy like vinge say at some point "nope, that's just not worth it" and be done with it. Dumoulin comes to mind.

The family man didn't hesitate to go from zero form to 6.7 w/kg on PdB in 8 weeks and his family didn't prevent him from displaying one of the most thermonuclear TTs of all time (Combloux last year).

 

[Cassirer]

The family man didn't hesitate to go from zero form to 6.7 w/kg on PdB in 8 weeks and his family didn't prevent him from displaying one of the most thermonuclear TTs of all time (Combloux last year).

I agree, the past does not give much indication towards him pulling the plug. Just saying I wouldn't find such a realisation too surprising, especially after this tour ("I did all this and it wasn't enough!? F it"). Obviously we won't be able to know anyways.