Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[CleanCiclismo]

This doesn't change the fact that they're pushing monstrous never before seen W/kg now.

What remains even if you remove all the comparisons to previous eras is the massive leaps in performance we see literally from year to year. I've yet to hear anyone even try to explain that with some concrete changes to training, fueling, technology whatever.

And it's not just in cycling. It's everywhere. In athletics we are seeing world records from the cold war era being broken. In Swimming they are going faster than in that dolphin swimsuit era. I was watching some rowing at the olympics and the commentator said that the last placed athlete would have won gold in Rio (8 years ago). It's crazy out there.

 

[Cookster15]

at least on an aero bike with wider tires

Are we sure about that? Agree about frames but not sure about wider tyres.

The aero drag equation is CdA

Cd is the drag due to the tyre / rim.

A is the frontal area and is equally important as Cd. A 26mm tyre has 4% more drag compared to a 25mm tyre due to its greater width.

 

[Cookster15]

And it's not just in cycling. It's everywhere. In athletics we are seeing world records from the cold war era being broken. In Swimming they are going faster than in that dolphin swimsuit era. I was watching some rowing at the olympics and the commentator said that the last placed athlete would have won gold in Rio (8 years ago). It's crazy out there.

While no doubt doping is rife we can’t assume every gain must be doping. In 1972 the legendary Mark Spitz set the men’s world 100metre freestyle record at 51.2 seconds. They are swimming sub 48 today. I don’t believe all those gains are doping.

The men’s 400 metre freestyle world record was set in 2009 in a super suit (3:40.07). That is just one hundredth of a second quicker than the previous world record not set in the super suits which were banned in 2010.

 

[CleanCiclismo]

Meanwhile they're not getting within 2 meters of Usain Bolt totally normals

Yeah but Usain's competition was usually all dopers. He needed to be on top form and go above and beyond his limit to beat them. Not like the current crop which are all clean. There's no extra pressure for them to go the extra mile. /s

Still in these Olympics it was the first time that a run of 9.95s was not good enough to get you to the final. And in the final it was super close. Only 0.12s separating the finalists. They all ran under 9.90 with exception of one who ran 9.91. Arguably the best race since 1988

 

[Samu Cuenca]

While no doubt doping is rife we can’t assume every gain must be doping. In 1972 the legendary Mark Spitz set the men’s world 100metre freestyle record at 51.2 seconds. They are swimming sub 48 today. I don’t believe all those gains are doping.

The men’s 400 metre freestyle world record was set in 2009 in a super suit (3:40.07). That is just one hundredth of a second quicker than the previous world record not set in the super suits which were banned in 2010.

It tells us how ridiculous Ian Thorpe's time was, when it's pretty much the only pre super suit era PB in any discipline, across both genders, that can't be beaten by anyone today. Paul Biederman beat it by that one hundredth of a second at those crazy Rome championships, but two days later he massacred the WR in the 200m, and set a time which was 2 seconds faster than Thorpe ever swam.

 

[Ruklaw]

It tells us how ridiculous Ian Thorpe's time was, when it's pretty much the only pre super suit era PB in any discipline, across both genders, that can't be beaten by anyone today. Paul Biederman beat it by that one hundredth of a second at those crazy Rome championships, but two days later he massacred the WR in the 200m, and set a time which was 2 seconds faster than Thorpe ever swam.

It's fair to point out that Thorpe also swam in a full body suit, which presumably he didn't just do for the style but for the reduction in drag - and he struggled considerably on his attempted comeback when he had to wear just shorts.

It does seem like 400m was probably a sweet spot where the buoyancy/drag gains from the suits outweighed their disadvantages (constriction of breathing, friction against skin etc).

Martens (Paris gold medalist) has come within three tenths of a second of breaking the record this year, which isn't bad going while in shorts - certainly I doubt the record will last another 15 years.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

It's fair to point out that Thorpe also swam in a full body suit, which presumably he didn't just do for the style but for the reduction in drag - and he struggled considerably on his attempted comeback when he had to wear just shorts.

It does seem like 400m was probably a sweet spot where the buoyancy/drag gains from the suits outweighed their disadvantages (constriction of breathing, friction against skin etc).

Martens (Paris gold medalist) has come within three tenths of a second of breaking the record this year, which isn't bad going while in shorts - certainly I doubt the record will last another 15 years.

The ridiculous was also meant to praise Thorpe for that performance, cause he had great technique, apart from having an advantage over his competitors due to his suit. There's of course also some doping accusations against him, but whether he was doing anything the others weren't doing at the time, is a different question.

The 400m record is definitely more likely to be broken soon than the 200m, unless Pan Zhanle, or the next big thing after him, one day manages to put the perfect swim together on that distance.

 

[Cookster15]

It's fair to point out that Thorpe also swam in a full body suit, which presumably he didn't just do for the style but for the reduction in drag - and he struggled considerably on his attempted comeback when he had to wear just shorts.

It does seem like 400m was probably a sweet spot where the buoyancy/drag gains from the suits outweighed their disadvantages (constriction of breathing, friction against skin etc).

Martens (Paris gold medalist) has come within three tenths of a second of breaking the record this year, which isn't bad going while in shorts - certainly I doubt the record will last another 15 years.

He struggled because he was 10 years older. When Thorpe was at his peak he was revered by people who know about swimming no matter what their nationality. You can’t gain that technique with doping - or a suit. Then he also had huge feet which might have helped him on the last lap when the 6 beat kick comes in. An amazing swimmer.

In the video the British guy points out had Thorpe not had such a long glide to the wall he might have gone sub 3'40".

the technique is basically flawless

Ian Thorpe 400m freestyle world record

 

[Ruklaw]

I did perhaps sound a bit harsh about Thorpe, which wasn't my intention, more simply to make the point that his unbeatable PB was assisted by a suit that is also now illegal in the sport.

He did break the then world record in tiny speedos back in 1999 (3:41:83) so of course there was a lot more to him as a swimmer than simply the suit (and massive feet).

 

[ivanic]

Sinner's scandal, that's exactly what's happening with this guy.
agencies and gov. are covering everything up.

 

[Ilmaestro99]

One for the purists (not me I won't watch)

 

[Cookster15]

I did perhaps sound a bit harsh about Thorpe, which wasn't my intention, more simply to make the point that his unbeatable PB was assisted by a suit that is also now illegal in the sport.

He did break the then world record in tiny speedos back in 1999 (3:41:83) so of course there was a lot more to him as a swimmer than simply the suit (and massive feet).

Your second paragraph is why we know it wasn't the suit.

 

[Froome]

Sinner's scandal, that's exactly what's happening with this guy.
agencies and gov. are covering everything up.

Until one day....and when that day comes, i will laugh a lot.

This guy's cynicism makes me vomit, more than the stupid propaganda that uae is doing all over the Internet and social networks, including forums.

He will end like Armstrong.

 

[snipeheem]

Until one day....and when that day comes, i will laugh a lot.

This guy's cynicism makes me vomit, more than the stupid propaganda that uae is doing all over the Internet and social networks, including forums.

He will end like Armstrong.

Pog and your boy, together

 

[Cookster15]

He will end like Armstrong.

Big call. What connections does Gianetti have and why are Visma falling short? We will see.

But you seem to have changed your POV. No doubt your boy will be overlooked? My doper is less guilty than your doper?

Personally I am still flabbergasted at Vingegaard’s level at the Tour after his April disaster. Every bit as crazy as injury free Pog.

 

[Salvarani]

Big call. What connections does Gianetti have and why are Visma falling short? We will see.

But you seem to have changed your POV. No doubt your boy will be overlooked? My doper is less guilty than your doper?

Personally I am still flabbergasted at Vingegaard’s level at the Tour after his April disaster. Every bit as crazy as injury free Pog.

Vinge and Visma the biggest fraudsters. Never forget Combloux and the Lazazrus effect this year. INSANE

 

[Krzysztof_O]

So Gianetti and co hid Teddy in a basement after way too spectacular first half of the season. Smart. Doing the Vuelta would infuriate his own teammates (and you don't want enemies in your own team). Winning the WC with ease, considering what he's already done this year, would cause more frustration in the peleton though so maybe it's not a bad idea to hide the golden boy until the next spring!

 

[CleanCiclismo]

So Gianetti and co hid Teddy in a basement after way too spectacular first half of the season. Smart. Doing the Vuelta would infuriate his own teammates (and you don't want enemies in your own team). Winning the WC with ease, considering what he's already done this year, would cause more frustration in the peleton though so maybe it's not a bad idea to hide the golden boy until the next spring!

Perhaps the peloton should just get gud, rather than sound like kids who's candy got stolen.

 

[E_F_]

[[content deleted]]

Of course Vingegaard is doping. I'm sure pretty much everyone is, but that doesn't make it fair. None of this makes it impossible that Pogacar will end like Armstrong. Jan Ullrich was also doping, after all.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Of course Vingegaard is doping. I'm sure pretty much everyone is, but that doesn't make it fair. None of this makes it impossible that Pogacar will end like Armstrong. Jan Ullrich was also doping, after all.

I agree with you. Both are doping and both should be caught

 

[E_F_]

I agree with you. Both are doping and both should be caught

Yep!

 

[CleanCiclismo]

I agree with you. Both are doping and both should be caught

Well you need a little thing called proof for them to get caught.

 

[topt]

Do we have any objective data that confirms this? The industry make a lot of grandiose claims but never mention independent tests. In the late 80s there was a lot of hype over aero gains too.

Bikes are a little faster uphill but most of the gains compared to today's bikes are made at higher speeds than you get on a mountain. Aero and tyres won't account for 3 minutes in a 40 minute climb like PdB. Remember when Pantani set the previous PdB record he was likely on unrestricted EPO. At 22km/h the difference between an old jersey and today's is minimal. On flat and descents sure. But not on an 8% climb.

And there is mountains of evidence online that Pantani's bike was under 7kg so that is line ball with today's bikes.

New Top 100 Plateau de Beille: The takeover

1. 2024: 39:50 Tadej Pogacar 23.95 km/h 2. 2024: 40:58 Jonas Vingegaard 23.29 km/h 3. 2024: 42:41 Remco Evenepoel 22.35 km/h 4. 1998...

www.climbing-records.com

for tyres we most certainly do, just check the differences even among modern tyres now, every new model that comes out is faster, would love if they tested old tyres, lets not forget the gearing, what was Pantani riding 23 cassete ? we have independent test, check tour magazine that test almost every bike in wind tunnel.

Road Bike Tires Test Results | Bicycle Rolling Resistance

An overview of all road bike tires which have been reviewed after being tested on our rolling resistance testing machine.

www.bicyclerollingresistance.com

I disagree, i think overall new package can get you this much faster

 

[topt]

Im talking bike specifically. Clothing, sure, the tyres are definitely also a small amount faster uphill, the diet is another ballgame completely. Anyone who just laughs at that don't really understand fueling and how much it has involved, BUT I have yet to be convinced a super 00's bike like the Trek Madone is so, so inferior to modern disc bikes uphill as some people have a vested interest in making us believe.

the tyres are the biggest gain, nobody talked about rolling resistance even 10 years ago

 

[topt]

Faster bikes, better diets, more advanced training, better equipment, ect. We were spun this tripe by US Postal, and it was proven to be a smokescreen.

Yes, things have advanced somewhat, but I don't believe any amount of modern equipment and training can totally account for these alien times we are now witnessing on climbs. There must be more to it than that. It's all in the mind and body.

Lemond stated he never exceeded 400 watts; today's cyclists are doing this regularly, and that is telling.

Greg LeMond: Miracles in cycling still don't exist | Cyclingnews.com

American talks about Armstrong, mechanical doping and marginal gains in L'Equipe interview

www.cyclingnews.com

well if Lemond 30 years ago couldnt do it than everybody else is doping right;