Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Salvarani]

Do we have any objective data that confirms this? The industry make a lot of grandiose claims but never mention independent tests. In the late 80s there was a lot of hype over aero gains too.

Bikes are a little faster uphill but most of the gains compared to today's bikes are made at higher speeds than you get on a mountain. Aero and tyres won't account for 3 minutes in a 40 minute climb like PdB. Remember when Pantani set the previous PdB record he was likely on uninhibited EPO. At 22km/h the difference between an old jersey and today's is minimal. On flat and descents sure. But not on an 8% climb.

And there is mountains of evidence online that Pantani's bike was under 7kg so that is line ball with today's bikes.

New Top 100 Plateau de Beille: The takeover

1. 2024: 39:50 Tadej Pogacar 23.95 km/h 2. 2024: 40:58 Jonas Vingegaard 23.29 km/h 3. 2024: 42:41 Remco Evenepoel 22.35 km/h 4. 1998...

www.climbing-records.com

Only possible explanation... is just... GOAT.

 

[Invicituz]

Faster bikes, better diets, more advanced training, better equipment, ect. We were spun this tripe by US Postal, and it was proven to be a smokescreen.

Yes, things have advanced somewhat, but I don't believe any amount of modern equipment and training can totally account for these alien times we are now witnessing on climbs. There must be more to it than that. It's all in the mind and body.

Lemond stated he never exceeded 400 watts; today's cyclists are doing this regularly, and that is telling.

Greg LeMond: Miracles in cycling still don't exist | Cyclingnews.com

American talks about Armstrong, mechanical doping and marginal gains in L'Equipe interview

www.cyclingnews.com

"When I raced, I had a VO2 max of 93, and I never developed more than 400 watts."

 

[Froome]

Only possible explanation... is just... GOAT.

Of course Eddy Merckx is the GOAT.

 

[Cookster15]

Faster bikes, better diets, more advanced training, better equipment, ect. We were spun this tripe by US Postal, and it was proven to be a smokescreen.

Yes, things have advanced somewhat, but I don't believe any amount of modern equipment and training can totally account for these alien times we are now witnessing on climbs. There must be more to it than that. It's all in the mind and body.

Lemond stated he never exceeded 400 watts; today's cyclists are doing this regularly, and that is telling.

Greg LeMond: Miracles in cycling still don't exist | Cyclingnews.com

American talks about Armstrong, mechanical doping and marginal gains in L'Equipe interview

www.cyclingnews.com

Up until maybe 2019 6 watts / kilo was considered the upper limit of what was possible clean. Anything above 6w/kg was considered clear evidence of doping. That matches Lemond's claim (Lemond was 67Kg). At the Tour Pogacar was doing 17% better (7w/kg) and Vingegaard was almost matching him despite his big crash and interrupted prep. Even Remco's level was quite insane really. Even riders like Landa if we look closely. Landa seemed stronger than he was in the 2022 Giro. Something has changed since Covid.

 

[Extinction]

Chris Froome: Power Numbers Tadej Pogačar Is Producing Are ‘Mind-Boggling’

Multiple Tour winner Froome says all-time Tour de France GC record is ‘vulnerable’ due to Pogačar’s dominance.

velo.outsideonline.com

 

[solo80k]

New Top 100 Plateau de Beille: The takeover

1. 2024: 39:50 Tadej Pogacar 23.95 km/h 2. 2024: 40:58 Jonas Vingegaard 23.29 km/h 3. 2024: 42:41 Remco Evenepoel 22.35 km/h 4. 1998...

www.climbing-records.com

UCI: How many blood bags did you guys use on Plateau de Beille in 2024?
Riders: Yes.

 

[Monoxidator]

Up until maybe 2019 6 watts / kilo was considered the upper limit of what was possible clean. Anything above 6w/kg was considered clear evidence of doping. That matches Lemond's claim (Lemond was 67Kg). At the Tour Pogacar was doing 17% better (7w/kg) and Vingegaard was almost matching him despite his big crash and interrupted prep. Even Remco's level was quite insane really. Even riders like Landa if we look closely. Landa seemed stronger than he was in the 2022 Giro. Something has changed since Covid.

There's just enough plausibility in the things that have improved (bikes, training, nutrition) to fool the masses into thinking that the performances are real. But in other sports, including doping heavy sports, it's shocking to see even a 2% improvement in an athlete's peak performance from year to year. Niels Pollitt improves 30% in one off-season and no one cares. Tadej improves 5% and eyebrows are barely raised.

 

[Bolder]

Do we have any objective data that confirms this? The industry make a lot of grandiose claims but never mention independent tests. In the late 80s there was a lot of hype over aero gains too.

Bikes are a little faster uphill but most of the gains compared to today's bikes are made at higher speeds than you get on a mountain. Aero and tyres won't account for 3 minutes in a 40 minute climb like PdB. Remember when Pantani set the previous PdB record he was likely on uninhibited EPO. At 22km/h the difference between an old jersey and today's is minimal. On flat and descents sure. But not on an 8% climb.

And there is mountains of evidence online that Pantani's bike was under 7kg so that is line ball with today's bikes.

New Top 100 Plateau de Beille: The takeover

1. 2024: 39:50 Tadej Pogacar 23.95 km/h 2. 2024: 40:58 Jonas Vingegaard 23.29 km/h 3. 2024: 42:41 Remco Evenepoel 22.35 km/h 4. 1998...

www.climbing-records.com

Well, you do come into a later climb fresher at least on an aero bike with wider tires. Also a lot of the roads used in GTs, especially the Tour, are better surfaced.

 

[E_F_]

Also a lot of the roads used in GTs, especially the Tour, are better surfaced.

This doesn't change the fact that they're pushing monstrous never before seen W/kg now.

What remains even if you remove all the comparisons to previous eras is the massive leaps in performance we see literally from year to year. I've yet to hear anyone even try to explain that with some concrete changes to training, fueling, technology whatever.

 

[CleanCiclismo]

This doesn't change the fact that they're pushing monstrous never before seen W/kg now.

What remains even if you remove all the comparisons to previous eras is the massive leaps in performance we see literally from year to year. I've yet to hear anyone even try to explain that with some concrete changes to training, fueling, technology whatever.

And it's not just in cycling. It's everywhere. In athletics we are seeing world records from the cold war era being broken. In Swimming they are going faster than in that dolphin swimsuit era. I was watching some rowing at the olympics and the commentator said that the last placed athlete would have won gold in Rio (8 years ago). It's crazy out there.

 

[Red Rick]

And it's not just in cycling. It's everywhere. In athletics we are seeing world records from the cold war era being broken. In Swimming they are going faster than in that dolphin swimsuit era. I was watching some rowing at the olympics and the commentator said that the last placed athlete would have won gold in Rio (8 years ago). It's crazy out there.

Meanwhile they're not getting within 2 meters of Usain Bolt totally normals

 

[Cookster15]

at least on an aero bike with wider tires

Are we sure about that? Agree about frames but not sure about wider tyres.

The aero drag equation is CdA

Cd is the drag due to the tyre / rim.

A is the frontal area and is equally important as Cd. A 26mm tyre has 4% more drag compared to a 25mm tyre due to its greater width.

 

[Cookster15]

And it's not just in cycling. It's everywhere. In athletics we are seeing world records from the cold war era being broken. In Swimming they are going faster than in that dolphin swimsuit era. I was watching some rowing at the olympics and the commentator said that the last placed athlete would have won gold in Rio (8 years ago). It's crazy out there.

While no doubt doping is rife we can’t assume every gain must be doping. In 1972 the legendary Mark Spitz set the men’s world 100metre freestyle record at 51.2 seconds. They are swimming sub 48 today. I don’t believe all those gains are doping.

The men’s 400 metre freestyle world record was set in 2009 in a super suit (3:40.07). That is just one hundredth of a second quicker than the previous world record not set in the super suits which were banned in 2010.

 

[CleanCiclismo]

Meanwhile they're not getting within 2 meters of Usain Bolt totally normals

Yeah but Usain's competition was usually all dopers. He needed to be on top form and go above and beyond his limit to beat them. Not like the current crop which are all clean. There's no extra pressure for them to go the extra mile. /s

Still in these Olympics it was the first time that a run of 9.95s was not good enough to get you to the final. And in the final it was super close. Only 0.12s separating the finalists. They all ran under 9.90 with exception of one who ran 9.91. Arguably the best race since 1988

 

[Samu Cuenca]

While no doubt doping is rife we can’t assume every gain must be doping. In 1972 the legendary Mark Spitz set the men’s world 100metre freestyle record at 51.2 seconds. They are swimming sub 48 today. I don’t believe all those gains are doping.

The men’s 400 metre freestyle world record was set in 2009 in a super suit (3:40.07). That is just one hundredth of a second quicker than the previous world record not set in the super suits which were banned in 2010.

It tells us how ridiculous Ian Thorpe's time was, when it's pretty much the only pre super suit era PB in any discipline, across both genders, that can't be beaten by anyone today. Paul Biederman beat it by that one hundredth of a second at those crazy Rome championships, but two days later he massacred the WR in the 200m, and set a time which was 2 seconds faster than Thorpe ever swam.

 

[Ruklaw]

It tells us how ridiculous Ian Thorpe's time was, when it's pretty much the only pre super suit era PB in any discipline, across both genders, that can't be beaten by anyone today. Paul Biederman beat it by that one hundredth of a second at those crazy Rome championships, but two days later he massacred the WR in the 200m, and set a time which was 2 seconds faster than Thorpe ever swam.

It's fair to point out that Thorpe also swam in a full body suit, which presumably he didn't just do for the style but for the reduction in drag - and he struggled considerably on his attempted comeback when he had to wear just shorts.

It does seem like 400m was probably a sweet spot where the buoyancy/drag gains from the suits outweighed their disadvantages (constriction of breathing, friction against skin etc).

Martens (Paris gold medalist) has come within three tenths of a second of breaking the record this year, which isn't bad going while in shorts - certainly I doubt the record will last another 15 years.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

It's fair to point out that Thorpe also swam in a full body suit, which presumably he didn't just do for the style but for the reduction in drag - and he struggled considerably on his attempted comeback when he had to wear just shorts.

It does seem like 400m was probably a sweet spot where the buoyancy/drag gains from the suits outweighed their disadvantages (constriction of breathing, friction against skin etc).

Martens (Paris gold medalist) has come within three tenths of a second of breaking the record this year, which isn't bad going while in shorts - certainly I doubt the record will last another 15 years.

The ridiculous was also meant to praise Thorpe for that performance, cause he had great technique, apart from having an advantage over his competitors due to his suit. There's of course also some doping accusations against him, but whether he was doing anything the others weren't doing at the time, is a different question.

The 400m record is definitely more likely to be broken soon than the 200m, unless Pan Zhanle, or the next big thing after him, one day manages to put the perfect swim together on that distance.

 

[Cookster15]

It's fair to point out that Thorpe also swam in a full body suit, which presumably he didn't just do for the style but for the reduction in drag - and he struggled considerably on his attempted comeback when he had to wear just shorts.

It does seem like 400m was probably a sweet spot where the buoyancy/drag gains from the suits outweighed their disadvantages (constriction of breathing, friction against skin etc).

Martens (Paris gold medalist) has come within three tenths of a second of breaking the record this year, which isn't bad going while in shorts - certainly I doubt the record will last another 15 years.

He struggled because he was 10 years older. When Thorpe was at his peak he was revered by people who know about swimming no matter what their nationality. You can’t gain that technique with doping - or a suit. Then he also had huge feet which might have helped him on the last lap when the 6 beat kick comes in. An amazing swimmer.

In the video the British guy points out had Thorpe not had such a long glide to the wall he might have gone sub 3'40".

the technique is basically flawless

Ian Thorpe 400m freestyle world record

 

[Ruklaw]

I did perhaps sound a bit harsh about Thorpe, which wasn't my intention, more simply to make the point that his unbeatable PB was assisted by a suit that is also now illegal in the sport.

He did break the then world record in tiny speedos back in 1999 (3:41:83) so of course there was a lot more to him as a swimmer than simply the suit (and massive feet).

 

[ivanic]

Sinner's scandal, that's exactly what's happening with this guy.
agencies and gov. are covering everything up.

 

[Ilmaestro99]

One for the purists (not me I won't watch)

 

[Cookster15]

I did perhaps sound a bit harsh about Thorpe, which wasn't my intention, more simply to make the point that his unbeatable PB was assisted by a suit that is also now illegal in the sport.

He did break the then world record in tiny speedos back in 1999 (3:41:83) so of course there was a lot more to him as a swimmer than simply the suit (and massive feet).

Your second paragraph is why we know it wasn't the suit.

 

[Froome]

Sinner's scandal, that's exactly what's happening with this guy.
agencies and gov. are covering everything up.

Until one day....and when that day comes, i will laugh a lot.

This guy's cynicism makes me vomit, more than the stupid propaganda that uae is doing all over the Internet and social networks, including forums.

He will end like Armstrong.

 

[snipeheem]

Until one day....and when that day comes, i will laugh a lot.

This guy's cynicism makes me vomit, more than the stupid propaganda that uae is doing all over the Internet and social networks, including forums.

He will end like Armstrong.

Pog and your boy, together

 

[Cookster15]

He will end like Armstrong.

Big call. What connections does Gianetti have and why are Visma falling short? We will see.

But you seem to have changed your POV. No doubt your boy will be overlooked? My doper is less guilty than your doper?

Personally I am still flabbergasted at Vingegaard’s level at the Tour after his April disaster. Every bit as crazy as injury free Pog.