Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Krzysztof_O]

The idea that VO2 max wouldn't be boosted by doping is among the dumbest ideas out there.

Also, the measurement is notably high variance depending on the type of machine that's used.

Basically the idea of blood doping is to improve oxygen transport, which above all results in VO2max boost. According to some papers the relative boost of performance after EPO is higher for medium-duration efforts operating closer to VO2max (i.e. 10-15 minutes) than for longer duration efforts. There are some VO2 calculation formulas (not sure how reliable though) which suggest that 7 w/kg coorresponds to 80+ ml/kg/min. If Teddy can sustain it for 40 minutes one can only imagine what is his actual VO2max (when eating porridge). 89-90 is looking really modest TBH, I wouldn't rule out something close to 100 actually. Not that Skeletor is much different in this regard.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Vo2 max duration when fresh at sea level in a lab we're gonna be pushing 9W/kg and 100+ guaranteed. VO2 max range is 3-8 minutes and pretty sure the Mur de Huy record alone is already around 9W/kg for the final 3 minutes.

The problem is that for such short durations a part of w/kg is generated in an anaerobic way (resulting in fast lactates accumulation) so VO2max can't be extrapolated that easily. Obviously such an effort generates a huge, maximal aerobic response but still part of the power is anaerobic in nature.

 

[Cookster15]

It actually does and there is a strong argument for it, but I don't care to make it as effectively I will be arguing for Vingegaard which I don't want to do. Dare I say that the reason you keep making this argument is that it makes you feel better about the rider you support.

The bold works both ways and strongly suggests you support Vingegaard.

The Combloux TT was just 33 minutes duration and Vingegaard pulled out a 98 second gap on 2nd place Pogacar - that's 5% faster! When Miguel Indurain did the "extraterrestrial" Luxemburg TT in 1992, that was less than 4% faster than Armand De Las Cuevas in 2nd.

If posters here were objective I wouldn't bother. Sure this is whataboutism, but what of it. Of course Pogacar is doping but we have been in an obvious arms race between UAE (Pogacar) and Visma (Vingegaard) since the fuse was it at LPdBF. We can't discuss one without also talking about the other rider.

And just to remind, despite all the radioactive performances of Pog in this year's Tour (note objectivity), Vingegaard never collapsed like Pogacar last year and was still strong enough to finish 2nd in the Nice TT - beating Remco. And Vingegaard achieved all this despite his massive crash, serious injuries and 12 days hospitalization in early April. There is the arms race right there.

 

[Cookster15]

Vo2 max duration when fresh at sea level in a lab we're gonna be pushing 9W/kg and 100+ guaranteed. VO2 max range is 3-8 minutes and pretty sure the Mur de Huy record alone is already around 9W/kg for the final 3 minutes.

Not sure about your calcs but on 100 VO2 max, we have been here before:

Tour 2009: Contador climb

Well, the response to the post yesterday describing Contador’s climb has been overwhelming – being in SA, I slept through most of your emails and woke this morning to a deluge of commen…

sportsscientists.com

Based on Contador’s amazing climb of the Verbier, a french scientist has estimated Contador’s VO2 max to be 99.5 ml/kg/min

 

[E_F_]

The bold works both ways and strongly suggests you support Vingegaard.

The Combloux TT was just 33 minutes duration and Vingegaard pulled out a 98 second gap on 2nd place Pogacar - that's 5% faster! When Miguel Indurain did the "extraterrestrial" Luxemburg TT in 1992, that was less than 4% faster than Armand De Las Cuevas in 2nd.

If posters here were objective I wouldn't bother. Sure this is whataboutism, but what of it. Of course Pogacar is doping but we have been in an obvious arms race between UAE (Pogacar) and Visma (Vingegaard) since the fuse was it at LPdBF. We can't discuss one without also talking about the other rider.

And just to remind, despite all the radioactive performances of Pog in this year's Tour (note objectivity), Vingegaard never collapsed like Pogacar last year and was still strong enough to finish 2nd in the Nice TT - beating Remco. And Vingegaard achieved all this despite his massive crash, serious injuries and 12 days hospitalization in early April. There is the arms race right there.

Pogacar also does one day races even cobbled classics, which is surely more absurd than anything Vingegaard has ever done, blablabla... It never stops!!!

I wish we could just talk about how ridiculous Pogi is in this thread, and how ridiculous Jonas is in "his" thread..!

 

[pman]

I usually try and stay out of these kinds of debates but I still can't believe some people go into a thread and accuse Rider X of doping while pretending that their favorite rider, Rider Y is clean. That's simply not how the sport has ever worked. One rider and one team never has a monopoly on rule bending.

 

[Rob5091]

I usually try and stay out of these kinds of debates but I still can't believe some people go into a thread and accuse Rider X of doping while pretending that their favorite rider, Rider Y is clean. That's simply not how the sport has ever worked. One rider and one team never has a monopoly on rule bending.

Welcome to the World of the Fanboy.

 

[Extinction]

I usually try and stay out of these kinds of debates but I still can't believe some people go into a thread and accuse Rider X of doping while pretending that their favorite rider, Rider Y is clean. That's simply not how the sport has ever worked. One rider and one team never has a monopoly on rule bending.

I think some take umbrage with what this thread actually concerns: namely, Pogacar AND Gianetti. The problem here is what's going on between them under UAE sponsorship, which is the most appalling affair in the sport to which journalism closes its eyes, because the money's too big to ruin the party. However, some fanboys want to divert the conversation with whataboutism regarding someone else's exploits and miraculous recovery, only because they can't handle the thread's legittimate beef with the fraudulent pair. Here is to be discussed why it's absolutely scandalous that Pogi does what he does in an operation run by Gianetti. Concerns about anyone else should be taken to the appropriate Clinic thread.

 

[Salvarani]

The bold works both ways and strongly suggests you support Vingegaard.

The Combloux TT was just 33 minutes duration and Vingegaard pulled out a 98 second gap on 2nd place Pogacar - that's 5% faster! When Miguel Indurain did the "extraterrestrial" Luxemburg TT in 1992, that was less than 4% faster than Armand De Las Cuevas in 2nd.

If posters here were objective I wouldn't bother. Sure this is whataboutism, but what of it. Of course Pogacar is doping but we have been in an obvious arms race between UAE (Pogacar) and Visma (Vingegaard) since the fuse was it at LPdBF. We can't discuss one without also talking about the other rider.

And just to remind, despite all the radioactive performances of Pog in this year's Tour (note objectivity), Vingegaard never collapsed like Pogacar last year and was still strong enough to finish 2nd in the Nice TT - beating Remco. And Vingegaard achieved all this despite his massive crash, serious injuries and 12 days hospitalization in early April. There is the arms race right there.

Hit the nail on the head with this one.

 

[pastronef]

If Vingegaard was at his highest ever level this year, as you say, then it's the only logical conclusion.

It was probably similar, compared to the rest of the field, to Plateau de Beille this year, and Pog still destroyed him there.

many fans don't realize what we -could- see in 2025 if Vingo arrives at the Tour healthy and top form. can you imagine the speed Pog would have needed if Vingo kept his wheel until 800 meters to go? if Pog had to cross the line completely distraught cause he had to go way beyond his max? we'd be looking at an even faster Plateau de Beille't time

 

[Cookster15]

The problem is that for such short durations a part of w/kg is generated in an anaerobic way (resulting in fast lactates accumulation) so VO2max can't be extrapolated that easily. Obviously such an effort generates a huge, maximal aerobic response but still part of the power is anaerobic in nature.

Yes, the the Mur de Huy record would include a hefty component of the anaerobic Lactic Energy System. VO2 max is only supposed to measure the aerobic component.

A Beginner’s Guide to Energy Systems in the Human Body

How does the food you eat fuel your workouts? Find out in this overview of the body’s three main energy systems: ATP-PC, Glycolytic, and Oxidative.

www.freeletics.com

All three energy systems are always active during exercise, however, the method you rely on most to produce that energy depends on the activity you are doing, or more specifically, its intensity and duration.

 

[Raest]

The bold works both ways and strongly suggests you support Vingegaard.

The Combloux TT was just 33 minutes duration and Vingegaard pulled out a 98 second gap on 2nd place Pogacar - that's 5% faster! When Miguel Indurain did the "extraterrestrial" Luxemburg TT in 1992, that was less than 4% faster than Armand De Las Cuevas in 2nd.

If posters here were objective I wouldn't bother. Sure this is whataboutism, but what of it. Of course Pogacar is doping but we have been in an obvious arms race between UAE (Pogacar) and Visma (Vingegaard) since the fuse was it at LPdBF. We can't discuss one without also talking about the other rider.

And just to remind, despite all the radioactive performances of Pog in this year's Tour (note objectivity), Vingegaard never collapsed like Pogacar last year and was still strong enough to finish 2nd in the Nice TT - beating Remco. And Vingegaard achieved all this despite his massive crash, serious injuries and 12 days hospitalization in early April. There is the arms race right there.

The point I made was that I don't understand why in a thread that discusses Pogacar's potential doping you and a couple of other posters feel the need to remind everyone, at regular intervals, that "nothing compares to Combloux" or "Vingegaard did it first" ( something which I hear a lot from my son, only he is... 4). The thread is about Pogacar and Giannetti it's not about Vingegaard, if you feel strongly about Vingegaard's performances there is a thread for it, you can vent all you want.

 

[Red Rick]

Pogacar's been doing outrageous *** out of nowhere since 2019, but sure Vingegaard did it first.

 

[Froome]

Pogacar's been doing outrageous *** out of nowhere since 2019, but sure Vingegaard did it first.

He is since 2019 together with the dealers of Ricardo ricco.

 

[Cookster15]

Pogacar's been doing outrageous *** out of nowhere since 2019, but sure Vingegaard did it first.

Actually I think it was 2018 - winning Tour de l’Avenir ? Pogacar was still a junior. Vingegaard was already 25 when he came 2nd in the 2021 Tour.

 

[Extinction]

Actually I think it was 2018 - winning Tour de l’Avenir ? Pogacar was still a junior. Vingegaard was already 25 when he came 2nd in the 2021 Tour.

Pogacar was less than a month shy of 20 years-old when he won, so, no, he wasn't a junior.

 

[Blobs]

Vingegaard was already 25 when he came 2nd in the 2021 Tour.

24

 

[BullsFan22]

24

Well, 24 and 7 months, turned 25 in December

 

[Cookster15]

Pogacar was less than a month shy of 20 years-old when he won, so, no, he wasn't a junior.

Okay, but the point is Pogacar when he won l’Avenir was very young so it is simply wrong to state "he came out of nowhere in 2019". Pogacar was first noticed by head coach and selector for the Slovenian national cycling team in 2011 when he was just 13!

And when you are that young your ability improves a lot and fast. The problem is Pogacar was already connected to Gianetti when he won l’Avenir in 2018. But why and how did Gianetti see the potential in him at such a young age? Obviously Gianetti didn't have any data on Pogacar at that time to suggest he would be a great responder to blood doping.

 

[Extinction]

Okay, but the point is Pogacar when he won l’Avenir was very young so it is simply wrong to state "he came out of nowhere in 2019". Pogacar was first noticed by head coach and selector for the Slovenian national cycling team in 2011 when he was just 13!

And when you are that young your ability improves a lot and fast. The problem is Pogacar was already connected to Gianetti when he won l’Avenir in 2018. But why and how did Gianetti see the potential in him at such a young age? Obviously Gianetti didn't have any data on Pogacar at that time to suggest he would be a great responder to blood doping.

When I was in high school in the 80s, guys on the football team were already taking anabolic steroids at 16-17 years-old. In fact, it was quite normal. The point is that by the time Pogacar was working with Gianetti he surely was on a program. You don't win Avenir on bread and water.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Pogacar never came out of nowhere. He is doped to the gills but let's not pretend he was a donkey like Froome and transformed in a beautiful racing horse. Pogacar was a huge talent with a huge engine, of course no one thought he would be "this good" but it was obvious he would be a gt contender one day.

 

[Salvarani]

Pogacar never came out of nowhere. He is doped to the gills but let's not pretend he was a donkey like Froome and transformed in a beautiful racing horse. Pogacar was a huge talent with a huge engine, of course no one thought he would be "this good" but it was obvious he would be a gt contender one day.

Yup he has true talent more than anything else.

 

[Peyroteo94]

This is it folks. Today is the day, The clinic will go wild just like in Plateau de Beille, popcorns are ready and waiting for "The Pogenheimer"!

 

[E_F_]

Pogacar wasn't hot s*** before the year, he won l'Avenir... He did come out of nowhere - at a young age. If you look at his results before that year.

 

[GuntherL1]

Are we having fun? I look forward to Pogacar winning this race by 5 minutes so we can celebrate his glorious year of credible cycling.