Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Nomad]

*I’ve asked in the Clinic recently what is being used to achieve the levels we are seeing. The general consensus still seems to be oxygen vector doping - blood manipulation. I don’t believe they are using a new drug or substance. Any such drug or substance would be susceptible to detection and also possible retrospective testing.

Do you think it's just simple transfusions?

With 02-vector doping, that would be the only viable method since the detection window of EPO microdosing has now been extended to ~12 hours. So the days of injecting during the nighttime hours (10:00 pm - 6:00 am) where WADA can't test is long gone.

And if it's not biological doping then perhaps it would have to be some technologically advanced mechanical enhancements?

 

[meat puppet]

The passport had loopholes from the go. But to a point I guess it put a cap on manipulations that could sustain the more extreme performances we are seeing now. My guess is that the institutional obstacle course the athletes faced was more apt pre Covid. Hence the relatively tame performances (not synonym with clean). Now the setup is breached, overridden, what have you.

Of the experts consulted when the passport was designed, especially Ashenden was quite vocal about the flaws. Google will find some of the discussions and these matters were also a topic here in the clinic.

As nomad's post pointed out, the off score was designed so that a combination of retic and hb dynamic had to score a 99% probability to be "unnatural" and thus off limits. Of course one wants to hedge a bit to avoid false positives, but the passport's design left a lot leeway to both athletes&docs and lawyers. This was essentially Ashenden's criticism.

As for how we assess and evaluate extreme performances, the social circumstances determine the contents of consciousness, not the other way round. What might have seen tragically farcical in the context where the passport was introduced seems to be just uncritically celebrated today. At the moment it seems that legacy stories about superhuman meme riders > competition that may involve uncertainty and ebbs and flows. If so, the assessment just flows from there.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

The passport had loopholes from the go. But to a point I guess it put a cap on manipulations that could sustain the more extreme performances we are seeing now. My guess is that the institutional obstacle course the athletes faced was more apt pre Covid. Hence the relatively tame performances (not synonym with clean). Now the setup is breached, overridden, what have you.

Of the experts consulted when the passport was designed, especially Ashenden was quite vocal about the flaws. Google will find some of the discussions and these matters were also a topic here in the clinic.

As nomad's post pointed out, the off score was designed so that a combination of retic and hb dynamic had to score a 99% probability to be "unnatural" and thus off limits. Of course one wants to hedge a bit to avoid false positives, but the passport's design left a lot leeway to both athletes&docs and lawyers. This was essentially Ashenden's criticism.

As for how we assess and evaluate extreme performances, the social circumstances determine the contents of consciousness, not the other way round. What might have seen tragically farcical in the context where the passport was introduced seems to be just uncritically celebrated today. At the moment it seems that legacy stories about superhuman meme riders > competition that may involve uncertainty and ebbs and flows. If so, the assessment just flows from there.

To me it's really interesting how historically extreme performances are achieved without violating the passport (assuming that blood doping is still the major weapon in cycling). One would think that upping engine power to such incredible values isn't possible without altering blood parameters in a significant way (like they used to do in the 90s).

If blood doping is still the main topic they must have superb methods to precisely alter blood values within those constraints and obtain substantial performance optimization at the same time. Optimization with constraints isn't always easy even in computer science, let alone in case of living organisms (and blood)! From what you wrote I get that the high score (to avoid false positives) leaves large room for manipulation (still, it worked better in 2010s so some big advancements must have been made).

 

[Extinction]

Politt spills the beans in the best podcast in ages: "Tadej said: if we win this one too, they’re going to get angry"

The cycling world is overflowing with podcasts, with riders frequently sharing stories about their lives. From now on, these podcasts will be weighed and measured against the Nils Politt factor. The G...

www.idlprocycling.com

 

[Invicituz]

Politt spills the beans in the best podcast in ages: "Tadej said: if we win this one too, they’re going to get angry"

The cycling world is overflowing with podcasts, with riders frequently sharing stories about their lives. From now on, these podcasts will be weighed and measured against the Nils Politt factor. The G...

www.idlprocycling.com

Except that Pantani's Bianchi is reported to have weighed 6.96kgs not 9kgs, and Pogačar’s Colnago 7.3kgs:

Comparing the Tour de France bikes that won on the Plateau de Beille in 1998 and 2024: Marco Pantani's Bianchi Mega Pro XL vs Tadej Pogačar's Colnago V4Rs

A lot has changed in cycling in the last 26 years, with Tadej Pogačar's record-breaking summit of one of the Tour de France's legendary climbs providing us with a great excuse to do a bike tech deep-dive

road.cc

 

[Extinction]

Except that Pantani's Bianchi is reported to have weighed 6.96kgs not 9kgs, and Pogačar’s Colnago 7.3kgs:

Comparing the Tour de France bikes that won on the Plateau de Beille in 1998 and 2024: Marco Pantani's Bianchi Mega Pro XL vs Tadej Pogačar's Colnago V4Rs

A lot has changed in cycling in the last 26 years, with Tadej Pogačar's record-breaking summit of one of the Tour de France's legendary climbs providing us with a great excuse to do a bike tech deep-dive

road.cc

Yea, everybody knows Politt is full of sh-it, but he can sell his nonsense to the suckers and doting fanbase.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Politt spills the beans in the best podcast in ages: "Tadej said: if we win this one too, they’re going to get angry"

The cycling world is overflowing with podcasts, with riders frequently sharing stories about their lives. From now on, these podcasts will be weighed and measured against the Nils Politt factor. The G...

www.idlprocycling.com

Is Skeletor on UAE's black list? It seems so, no mercy!

 

[Extinction]

Is Skeletor on UAE's black list? It seems so, no mercy!

It's still mafia cycling. The nice-guy Pogi act is a mask.

 

[Salvarani]

Hate the game, not the player! Nice-guy is better.

Better than adhd and rager Remco.

Or skeletor and lab-rat Vinge.

 

[meat puppet]

Yea, everybody knows Politt is full of sh-it, but he can sell his nonsense to the suckers and doting fanbase.

But but but Lance had a very large heart and he invented cadence.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

It's still mafia cycling. The nice-guy Pogi act is a mask.

Teddy is a good boy eating porridge but he doesn't have to love everyone!

 

[noob]

I have just relistened to Cycle of lies by Juliet Macur. The similarities with today and then is astounding. The first time I read (listened) to it was 3 years ago or more so I had no real comparison. But today I have.

The same fans, the same comments, the same excuses, the same victimised athletes. Ugh.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Except that Pantani's Bianchi is reported to have weighed 6.96kgs not 9kgs, and Pogačar’s Colnago 7.3kgs:

Comparing the Tour de France bikes that won on the Plateau de Beille in 1998 and 2024: Marco Pantani's Bianchi Mega Pro XL vs Tadej Pogačar's Colnago V4Rs

A lot has changed in cycling in the last 26 years, with Tadej Pogačar's record-breaking summit of one of the Tour de France's legendary climbs providing us with a great excuse to do a bike tech deep-dive

road.cc

Durianrider would laugh at Politt. These new bikes are definitely incredibly at high speeds on the flat and what have you, but Im very curious how it would stack up uphill against late 90's bike (think Telekoms Pinarello or Mercatone Uno's Binachi) and mid 00's US Postal Trek Madone. Or even the Specialized Tarmac bikes Bora and QS rode in the 10's, the Pinarellos of Sky etc..

I bet the difference isn't that big up a climb like Plateau de Beille. Especially not compared to, say, mid 00's and forward. Its blody 0,5 kg. That definitely counts for something, and discs definitely do make you go slower on a final climb. I still don't know why they don't switch to a bike with rim brakes when its obviously favorable up a climb. Im certain Michael Rasmussen would have told Rabobank just that in the mid 00's!

 

[topt]

Durianrider would laugh at Politt. These new bikes are definitely incredibly at high speeds on the flat and what have you, but Im very curious how it would stack up uphill against late 90's bike (think Telekoms Pinarello or Mercatone Uno's Binachi) and mid 00's US Postal Trek Madone. Or even the Specialized Tarmac bikes Bora and QS rode in the 10's, the Pinarellos of Sky etc..

I bet the difference isn't that big up a climb like Plateau de Beille. Especially not compared to, say, mid 00's and forward. Its blody 0,5 kg. That definitely counts for something, and discs definitely do make you go slower on a final climb. I still don't know why they don't switch to a bike with rim brakes when its obviously favorable up a climb. Im certain Michael Rasmussen would have told Rabobank just that in the mid 00's!

this is just not true, bikes are much faster also on uphill; tyres are the biggest gain, than gearing.... also the clothing; just look at the jersey Pantani was wearing....

 

[Valv.Piti]

this is just not true, bikes are much faster also on uphill; tyres are the biggest gain, than gearing.... also the clothing; just look at the jersey Pantani was wearing....

Im talking bike specifically. Clothing, sure, the tyres are definitely also a small amount faster uphill, the diet is another ballgame completely. Anyone who just laughs at that don't really understand fueling and how much it has involved, BUT I have yet to be convinced a super 00's bike like the Trek Madone is so, so inferior to modern disc bikes uphill as some people have a vested interest in making us believe.

 

[Cookster15]

this is just not true, bikes are much faster also on uphill; tyres are the biggest gain, than gearing.... also the clothing; just look at the jersey Pantani was wearing....

Do we have any objective data that confirms this? The industry make a lot of grandiose claims but never mention independent tests. In the late 80s there was a lot of hype over aero gains too.

Bikes are a little faster uphill but most of the gains compared to today's bikes are made at higher speeds than you get on a mountain. Aero and tyres won't account for 3 minutes in a 40 minute climb like PdB. Remember when Pantani set the previous PdB record he was likely on unrestricted EPO. At 22km/h the difference between an old jersey and today's is minimal. On flat and descents sure. But not on an 8% climb.

And there is mountains of evidence online that Pantani's bike was under 7kg so that is line ball with today's bikes.

New Top 100 Plateau de Beille: The takeover

1. 2024: 39:50 Tadej Pogacar 23.95 km/h 2. 2024: 40:58 Jonas Vingegaard 23.29 km/h 3. 2024: 42:41 Remco Evenepoel 22.35 km/h 4. 1998...

www.climbing-records.com

 

[Salvarani]

Do we have any objective data that confirms this? The industry make a lot of grandiose claims but never mention independent tests. In the late 80s there was a lot of hype over aero gains too.

Bikes are a little faster uphill but most of the gains compared to today's bikes are made at higher speeds than you get on a mountain. Aero and tyres won't account for 3 minutes in a 40 minute climb like PdB. Remember when Pantani set the previous PdB record he was likely on uninhibited EPO. At 22km/h the difference between an old jersey and today's is minimal. On flat and descents sure. But not on an 8% climb.

And there is mountains of evidence online that Pantani's bike was under 7kg so that is line ball with today's bikes.

New Top 100 Plateau de Beille: The takeover

1. 2024: 39:50 Tadej Pogacar 23.95 km/h 2. 2024: 40:58 Jonas Vingegaard 23.29 km/h 3. 2024: 42:41 Remco Evenepoel 22.35 km/h 4. 1998...

www.climbing-records.com

Only possible explanation... is just... GOAT.

 

[Invicituz]

Faster bikes, better diets, more advanced training, better equipment, ect. We were spun this tripe by US Postal, and it was proven to be a smokescreen.

Yes, things have advanced somewhat, but I don't believe any amount of modern equipment and training can totally account for these alien times we are now witnessing on climbs. There must be more to it than that. It's all in the mind and body.

Lemond stated he never exceeded 400 watts; today's cyclists are doing this regularly, and that is telling.

Greg LeMond: Miracles in cycling still don't exist | Cyclingnews.com

American talks about Armstrong, mechanical doping and marginal gains in L'Equipe interview

www.cyclingnews.com

"When I raced, I had a VO2 max of 93, and I never developed more than 400 watts."

 

[Froome]

Only possible explanation... is just... GOAT.

Of course Eddy Merckx is the GOAT.

 

[Cookster15]

Faster bikes, better diets, more advanced training, better equipment, ect. We were spun this tripe by US Postal, and it was proven to be a smokescreen.

Yes, things have advanced somewhat, but I don't believe any amount of modern equipment and training can totally account for these alien times we are now witnessing on climbs. There must be more to it than that. It's all in the mind and body.

Lemond stated he never exceeded 400 watts; today's cyclists are doing this regularly, and that is telling.

Greg LeMond: Miracles in cycling still don't exist | Cyclingnews.com

American talks about Armstrong, mechanical doping and marginal gains in L'Equipe interview

www.cyclingnews.com

Up until maybe 2019 6 watts / kilo was considered the upper limit of what was possible clean. Anything above 6w/kg was considered clear evidence of doping. That matches Lemond's claim (Lemond was 67Kg). At the Tour Pogacar was doing 17% better (7w/kg) and Vingegaard was almost matching him despite his big crash and interrupted prep. Even Remco's level was quite insane really. Even riders like Landa if we look closely. Landa seemed stronger than he was in the 2022 Giro. Something has changed since Covid.

 

[Extinction]

Chris Froome: Power Numbers Tadej Pogačar Is Producing Are ‘Mind-Boggling’

Multiple Tour winner Froome says all-time Tour de France GC record is ‘vulnerable’ due to Pogačar’s dominance.

velo.outsideonline.com

 

[solo80k]

New Top 100 Plateau de Beille: The takeover

1. 2024: 39:50 Tadej Pogacar 23.95 km/h 2. 2024: 40:58 Jonas Vingegaard 23.29 km/h 3. 2024: 42:41 Remco Evenepoel 22.35 km/h 4. 1998...

www.climbing-records.com

UCI: How many blood bags did you guys use on Plateau de Beille in 2024?
Riders: Yes.

 

[Monoxidator]

Up until maybe 2019 6 watts / kilo was considered the upper limit of what was possible clean. Anything above 6w/kg was considered clear evidence of doping. That matches Lemond's claim (Lemond was 67Kg). At the Tour Pogacar was doing 17% better (7w/kg) and Vingegaard was almost matching him despite his big crash and interrupted prep. Even Remco's level was quite insane really. Even riders like Landa if we look closely. Landa seemed stronger than he was in the 2022 Giro. Something has changed since Covid.

There's just enough plausibility in the things that have improved (bikes, training, nutrition) to fool the masses into thinking that the performances are real. But in other sports, including doping heavy sports, it's shocking to see even a 2% improvement in an athlete's peak performance from year to year. Niels Pollitt improves 30% in one off-season and no one cares. Tadej improves 5% and eyebrows are barely raised.

 

[Bolder]

Do we have any objective data that confirms this? The industry make a lot of grandiose claims but never mention independent tests. In the late 80s there was a lot of hype over aero gains too.

Bikes are a little faster uphill but most of the gains compared to today's bikes are made at higher speeds than you get on a mountain. Aero and tyres won't account for 3 minutes in a 40 minute climb like PdB. Remember when Pantani set the previous PdB record he was likely on uninhibited EPO. At 22km/h the difference between an old jersey and today's is minimal. On flat and descents sure. But not on an 8% climb.

And there is mountains of evidence online that Pantani's bike was under 7kg so that is line ball with today's bikes.

New Top 100 Plateau de Beille: The takeover

1. 2024: 39:50 Tadej Pogacar 23.95 km/h 2. 2024: 40:58 Jonas Vingegaard 23.29 km/h 3. 2024: 42:41 Remco Evenepoel 22.35 km/h 4. 1998...

www.climbing-records.com

Well, you do come into a later climb fresher at least on an aero bike with wider tires. Also a lot of the roads used in GTs, especially the Tour, are better surfaced.

 

[E_F_]

Also a lot of the roads used in GTs, especially the Tour, are better surfaced.

This doesn't change the fact that they're pushing monstrous never before seen W/kg now.

What remains even if you remove all the comparisons to previous eras is the massive leaps in performance we see literally from year to year. I've yet to hear anyone even try to explain that with some concrete changes to training, fueling, technology whatever.