Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Gratemans]

I lived through the 90's an 00's. If I was watching this without being even slightly sceptical, I'd be making a fool out of myself.
I just don't know how to feel about today.

I can say one thing for certain though: heroic battles are far more exciting to watch than heroic one-man-shows.

 

[Cookster15]

So it seems that most guys here are certain that Pog is on something special that the others aren't on....... has anybody any idea??

Could motors be at play??? The attacks this man puts in are just bat-*** crazy.

He won by 30 seconds after a 100km escape and was obviously hurting in the closing kilometers. I really doubt motors.

 

[velaso montador]

So you are saying he should have quit or what is your point?

Does everyone has to win every race at a young age? How is that a good measure?

What are people really saying hahaha. You cant compare JR to MEN in this sport cycling its not the same as other sports, you compare them when they enter elite racing and their age and how they fares relative to that.

Pogacar won the pinnacle of the sport at age 20, he is the most talented rider theres ever been imagine actually twisting something as given as that what are some people smooking here to cope.

 

[GuntherL1]

I lived through the 90's an 00's. If I was watching this without being even slightly sceptical, I'd be making a fool out of myself.
I just don't know how to feel about today.

I can say one thing for certain though: heroic battles are far more exciting to watch than heroic one-man-shows.

This is much worse. We've never seen anything like this before. I'm not only talking about today, but he basically destroyed the entire field on every terrain at any time of the season, all season. That didn't happen in the nineties. We never had this all season domination. You had TdF domination (Indurain, Armstrong) and spring classics domination (Mapei), but even these guys had a bad day now and then.

 

[Salvarani]

What are people really saying hahaha. You cant compare JR to MEN in this sport cycling its not the same as other sports, you compare them when they enter elite racing and their age and how they fares relative to that.

Pogacar won the pinnacle of the sport at age 20, he is the most talented rider theres ever been imagine actually twisting something as given as that what are some people smooking here to cope.

Just no one like him, that is better.

 

[ivanic]

Pogacar is way beyond Armstrong who was only Tour de France. Armstrong won the worlds in 1993 pre cancer when he was relatively chubby. I really doubt Pog is using any substance unless there is corruption - always a possibility as we saw with Armstrong. But they will have to destroy the samples in case there is retrospective testing.

But even if I accept this "oil money" meme, what is in it for the UAE government? Oil money can buy big European football teams. Why a 2nd string sport like cycling? Makes no logical sense.

More money = better drugs, better doctors, better protection.

I'm sorry but Gianetti and clean performances cannot coexist.

 

[Ilmaestro99]

More money = better drugs, better doctors, better protection.

I'm sorry but Gianetti and clean performances cannot coexist.

Maybe gianetti just suddenly decided to start using clean and legitimate methods one morning, after a long career as a dirty guy and unrepentant dopper

Fortunate for him that this new squeaky clean period is coinciding with his biggest period of dominance

It's great to have an honest guy like gianetti in the top of our sport. I'm sure Tadej is proud to represent him

 

[DutchDynamite]

Maybe gianetti just suddenly decided to start using clean and legitimate methods one morning, after a long career as a dirty guy and unrepentant dopper

Maybe he found Jesus

 

[Melo]

https://imgur.com/a/1cvHTgg

View: https://imgur.com/a/1cvHTgg

 

[E_F_]

But even if I accept this "oil money" meme, what is in it for the UAE government? Oil money can buy big European football teams. Why a 2nd string sport like cycling? Makes no logical sense.

Obviously because the investment matches the outcome. Football is a major investment, but it gets a lot of attention so it's worth it. Cycling they get to dominate for very little investment.

 

[Froome]

Maybe gianetti just suddenly decided to start using clean and legitimate methods one morning, after a long career as a dirty guy and unrepentant dopper

Fortunate for him that this new squeaky clean period is coinciding with his biggest period of dominance

It's great to have an honest guy like gianetti in the top of our sport. I'm sure Tadej is proud to represent him

I think we can all agree, UAE found some advanced doping this year, that the others teams including Visma, didn't yet found, and i am not talking just about Pogacar. The other riders of the team, improved a lot and had good results.

 

[Shakes]

Think it's only common sense that if he is clean and so amazing... He'd have left UAE after his first tour win. Young riders can be forgiven to join such a team, as they need a contract. A bonafide Tour winner that is clean can't.

Just that tells me he is not clean. As no sane clean rider would stay there (and even sign a new contract).

 

[Samu Cuenca]

I think we can all agree, UAE found some advanced doping this year, that the others teams including Visma, didn't yet found, and i am not talking just about Pogacar. The other riders of the team, improved a lot and had good results.

There's also the possibility, that they finally started doing what others had been doing for longer. We don't know.

 

[Froome]

There's also the possibility, that they finally started doing what others had been doing for longer. We don't know.

No way, especially when they always had more money than everyone.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

No way, especially when they always had more money than everyone.

Saunier Duval wasn't the richest team in the peloton in 2008 and neither was CSF Group - Navigare. I don't think the biggest teams are always first movers, but once they catch up, their larger budgets (and sometimes higher level of protection) will of course make a difference.

 

[Netserk]

I think we can all agree, UAE found some advanced doping this year, that the others teams including Visma, didn't yet found, and i am not talking just about Pogacar. The other riders of the team, improved a lot and had good results.

I don't agree. It's an option, but not the one I find most likely.

 

[Froome]

I don't agree. It's an option, but not the one I find most likely.

What is the option you think is more likely?

 

[Froome]

Saunier Duval wasn't the richest team in the peloton in 2008 and neither was CSF Group - Navigare. I don't think the biggest teams are always first movers, but once they catch up, their larger budgets (and sometimes higher level of protection) will of course make a difference.

Well, Astana had more money in 2008, and that's why they won more than Saunier, and guess what, they're weren't catched like saunier. They had money to use things better and cover what they did, without getting caught.

 

[Netserk]

What is the option you think is more likely?

That he has mostly the same kinds of inputs as Vingegaard, but more resources or better protection. Or maybe even just on a similar level, and only the Itzulia crash is the difference.

 

[peterfin]

Yeah, the improvement that is most suspicious is his YoY. He is much stronger in 2024 than in 2022 & 2023.

But more so, it is his absolute level now and how much stronger he is than the strongest peloton ever. He could have dominated to the same extent since he was 17, and it’d still stink.

His YoY improvement relative to the peloton and his climb results in absolute terms beating records of the EPO era make it very difficult to swalow.

The storries we hear about his sudden training improvements or his ability to digest more carbs could be spinned to let people believe he is clean. It also helps if an unknown prophet, called 'mou', pops up giving the training improvements more 'credibility'. Of course it cannot have the impact we see, not at this pro level. The real story might be simply this: UAE lost the TdF two times in a row against a yellow fish that looked impossible to catch without giving the team an artificial boost.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Well, Astana had more money in 2008, and that's why they won more than Saunier, and guess what, they're weren't catched like saunier. They had money to use things better and cover what they did, without getting caught.

I might be wrong about this, but my feeling has been that Astana were using standard blood bags rather than CERA in 2008 (they may also have used CERA or other EPO products, but to a lesser degree than those who got caught that year).

 

[Cookster15]

That he has mostly the same kinds of inputs as Vingegaard, but more resources or better protection. Or maybe even just on a similar level, and only the Itzulia crash is the difference.

I’d agree except we are not only talking about dominance of grand tour racing here. I don’t think we would ever see Vingegaard win a world title unless it was a unipeurto course finishing on an HC climb - which isn’t going to happen.

 

[Netserk]

I’d agree except we are not only talking about dominance of grand tour racing here. I don’t think we would ever see Vingegaard win a world title unless it was a unipeurto course finishing on an HC climb - which isn’t going to happen.

And Van der Poel would never contend a GT no matter what drugs he took. So I don't think their difference in one-day races implies that they must be doping to different extents.

 

[Gratemans]

Saunier Duval wasn't the richest team in the peloton in 2008 and neither was CSF Group - Navigare. I don't think the biggest teams are always first movers, but once they catch up, their larger budgets (and sometimes higher level of protection) will of course make a difference.

See, I dont think those higher levels of protection even really exist anymore, not between WT teams at least. Sure, a small fish gets caught every once in a (long) while. But the UCI realised a long, long time ago that actually catching a WT-level rider (let alone someone with Vingo's or Pog's status) is incredibly damaging to the sport, and therefor, their income.

Remember Armstrongs return? The UCI quite literally begged him not to come back. It was his hubris that forced their hand in the end. If the UCI had it their way, he never would have returned and more importantly to them, he never would have been exposed.

 

[Raest]

Pogacar is way beyond Armstrong who was only Tour de France. Armstrong won the worlds in 1993 pre cancer when he was relatively chubby. I really doubt Pog is using any substance unless there is corruption - always a possibility as we saw with Armstrong. But they will have to destroy the samples in case there is retrospective testing.

But even if I accept this "oil money" meme, what is in it for the UAE government? Oil money can buy big European football teams. Why a 2nd string sport like cycling? Makes no logical sense.

Pogacar is "way beyond" one of the biggest dopers in the history of cycling and you really doubt that he is using any substance. He is doing W/kg numbers that pretty much every exercise physiologist on record thought impossible and you really doubt that he is using any substance. He obliterated Vingegaard who you are certain that he is doping, in this year's TdF, hell, he is gotten to the point where he is pretty much doing a Landis Luz Ardiden-type-solo week in week out and you still "really doubt" if he is using any substance. ?!!!!