Question Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

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It's about time we address Pogacars remarkable rise since he joined UAE in 2019.

His first season as a junior wasn't anything special, but we have to remember that he was born later in year (September) which is a disadvantage at that age.
In his second season he definitely proved his talent by winning the Giro della Lunigiana.
However, in the entire season he only won two stages and never put any distance on his competitors.
His time trial abilities were less impressive. A 25th and 68th spot.

His first season as a U23 rider wasn't too great either.
He won a few youth jerseys, but didn't record a single stage win.

His second season was definitely better, but still hit and miss.
He won the Tour de l'Avenir, but didn't record a stage win.
He also finished 7th at the WC road race.
Promising, but not exceptional.

Then he moved to UAE. Its CEO is Mauro Gianetti, possibly the dirtiest rider and sports director in history.
Suddenly he started to win stage races (Algarve, California, and individual mountain stages in the Vuelta against the likes of Valverde and Roglic.
He also became a much better time trialist beating Mohoric and Tratnik in the Slovenian championship.

Give me a break.
 
Reactions: vanderbob
not here in the clinic section. But in the general forum and other cycling communities most people think that he's an innocent little boy.
Yup. Funny stuff. Of course, in the general forum folks will make comparisons to how good someone curently is and compare that to some sort of doped up performance from the late 90's or early 2000's, and not see the irony.
 
Yup. Funny stuff. Of course, in the general forum folks will make comparisons to how good someone curently is and compare that to some sort of doped up performance from the late 90's or early 2000's, and not see the irony.
I think they see the irony. They just aren't allowed to openly speak about doping there. They don't see a point in coming here, but that doesn't mean they are all naive.
 
Formolo did an insane ride today too. Saunier Duval is back.
I don't want to defend the whole team too much, but that's what Formolo does, he can ride hard for a long time. Pretty much all of his wins have come after a long solo attack and he has finished 2nd in both Strade Bianche and LBL before.
If he starts pulling Kuss/Porte level performances as a climbing superdomestique I'll call bs, but this kind of performance on hilly terrain is pretty much in line with his most impressive performances (long solo attacks and hard, hilly one day races).
 
Reactions: F_Cance
Hmmm,
  • WvA TT'ing super strong and having sustained power for a long sprint, ok. Climbing with the best climbers and beating some of them? Not really buying it (at least lose the sprint power ;) )
  • MvdP alien accelerations and ability to recover (and his technique in cx and mtb), ok. His ability to now sustain over long distances, essentially TT, and sustain those 5 second accelerations for minutes? Not buying it. At least pick which kind of alien you are, ATP/instant acceleration, anaerobic, aerobic ...
  • TP nukes the other climbers, breaking climbing records all over the place, recovering instantly, having an incredibly suspect entourage, and not too far off the absolute worlds best in a dead flat TT (with perhaps one of the least aero positions)? Not even close to buying it.
And there you have. Posting in this thread because winner winner chicken dinner - TP is not just alien ... I don' really know what I am seeing.
u forgot Roglic
PR wins MTTs, TTs and one day classics and Makes Laporte & Mathews look like third rate sprinters in uphill sprints. Is the only one able to follow TP on MTTs
 
Reactions: Ripper
Hmmm,
  • WvA TT'ing super strong and having sustained power for a long sprint, ok. Climbing with the best climbers and beating some of them? Not really buying it (at least lose the sprint power ;) )
  • MvdP alien accelerations and ability to recover (and his technique in cx and mtb), ok. His ability to now sustain over long distances, essentially TT, and sustain those 5 second accelerations for minutes? Not buying it. At least pick which kind of alien you are, ATP/instant acceleration, anaerobic, aerobic ...
  • TP nukes the other climbers, breaking climbing records all over the place, recovering instantly, having an incredibly suspect entourage, and not too far off the absolute worlds best in a dead flat TT (with perhaps one of the least aero positions)? Not even close to buying it.
And there you have. Posting in this thread because winner winner chicken dinner - TP is not just alien ... I don' really know what I am seeing.
Tell me Van Aert is a better stage racer than Roglic & I'll believe Pogacar is unassailable. 1 minute between Pogacar & Van Aert in Tirreno? I reckon both Roglic & Carapaz (just a hunch regarding the latter, because Ineos are total pros) will both be in the hunt for the Tour yellow jersey this summer.

Call me crazy but I believe we've entered (or re-entered?) into epic wild cycling stuff worthy of the best eras (or worst, depending upon "who" you're talking to) & the performances & drama we'll witness this summer will be the stuff of legends.

People can either enjoy the ride or complain ad-infinitum. But when Tennis, Football & other sports get such a free pass for decades, I'm kinda happy cycling is back on the menu in the world of mass sports entertainment.

Powered by whatever.
 
Tell me Van Aert is a better stage racer than Roglic & I'll believe Pogacar is unassailable. 1 minute between Pogacar & Van Aert in Tirreno? I reckon both Roglic & Carapaz (just a hunch regarding the latter, because Ineos are total pros) will both be in the hunt for the Tour yellow jersey this summer.

Call me crazy but I believe we've entered (or re-entered?) into epic wild cycling stuff worthy of the best eras (or worst, depending upon "who" you're talking to) & the performances & drama we'll witness this summer will be the stuff of legends.

People can either enjoy the ride or complain ad-infinitum. But when Tennis, Football & other sports get such a free pass for decades, I'm kinda happy cycling is back on the menu in the world of mass sports entertainment.

Powered by whatever.
i sort of agree, the entertainment value is sky high, i always thought 90s were the most fun to watch because everyone was constantly in "f*** it, lets attack" mode fueled by EPO. we might be getting back to that, i believe its agreed on highest levels of sport we gonna do this for couple of years, recoup Covid losses and then ban some unfortunate 2nd class riders, pretend this time is different, im all in on conspiracies

at the same its gonna be hard to listen to commentators awkwardly explaining how amazing this is :D
 
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Tell me Van Aert is a better stage racer than Roglic & I'll believe Pogacar is unassailable. 1 minute between Pogacar & Van Aert in Tirreno? I reckon both Roglic & Carapaz (just a hunch regarding the latter, because Ineos are total pros) will both be in the hunt for the Tour yellow jersey this summer.

Call me crazy but I believe we've entered (or re-entered?) into epic wild cycling stuff worthy of the best eras (or worst, depending upon "who" you're talking to) & the performances & drama we'll witness this summer will be the stuff of legends.

People can either enjoy the ride or complain ad-infinitum. But when Tennis, Football & other sports get such a free pass for decades, I'm kinda happy cycling is back on the menu in the world of mass sports entertainment.

Powered by whatever.
I suspect the bolded may be true, it is certainly looking like the wild west.

FWIW I was not comparing WvA to PR just because I have really been amazed by T-A racing this week. Also, I do not see WvA as someone competing for a GT GC at this juncture. For an earlier season week long stage race though, the level at T-A was very, very high.
 
i sort of agree, the entertainment value is sky high, i always thought 90s were the most fun to watch because everyone was constantly in "f*** it, lets attack" mode fueled by EPO. we might be getting back to that, i believe its agreed on highest levels of sport we gonna do this for couple of years, recoup Covid losses and then ban some unfortunate 2nd class riders, pretend this time is different, im all in on conspiracies

at the same its gonna be hard to listen to commentators awkwardly explaining how amazing this is :D
I think we are about 1%, give or take, from awkward silences and reactions when it comes to live reactions.

Yup, the 90's were just batsh!t crazy at times, weren't they? Late 90's climbing attacks where people had to brake into the switchbacks because they were climbing to freaking fast.

I know some folks who just cooked themselves trying to sustain insane efforts. There was some high levels of burnout, physically and mentally. In other words, while it was a spectacle and, it is what it is ... I really hope we don't see full alien from the field.
 
Mar 16, 2021
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  • MvdP alien accelerations and ability
Coming from a background of Olympic Weightlifting, explosive power is genetically heritable and almost completely untrainable. If you have a good vertical jump (like I would imagine MvdP would have) you will have one your entire life. If you have a bad one, you will have it your entire life. Theres plenty to be suspicous of, but the accelerations arent. Thats just lucky genetics.
 
I have mixed feelings about Pogi. I appreciate and enjoy his talent and some of his racing escapades. His rise/progression is not of the "donkey-to-racehorse" variety. He's been a winner at all levels. And think of how unexciting last year's TDF GC battle would have been without his challenges to Primoz on mountain stages. The race would have been "in the bag" with a week or more left to go. At the same time, some of these incredible performances at age 22, and the dominance we're seeing, are just . . . incredible (maybe not credible). If he doesn't get sick or crash, he could pull a Lance (win 7 TDFs in a row, or even more).
 
Coming from a background of Olympic Weightlifting, explosive power is genetically heritable and almost completely untrainable. If you have a good vertical jump (like I would imagine MvdP would have) you will have one your entire life. If you have a bad one, you will have it your entire life. Theres plenty to be suspicous of, but the accelerations arent. Thats just lucky genetics.
And his insanely good acceleration I give him full credit for. He has always had it. However, using that repeatedly exhausts aerobic and anaerobic reserves rapidly. So it is his other adaptations that make me go hmmmmm
 
Coming from a background of Olympic Weightlifting, explosive power is genetically heritable and almost completely untrainable. If you have a good vertical jump (like I would imagine MvdP would have) you will have one your entire life. If you have a bad one, you will have it your entire life. Theres plenty to be suspicous of, but the accelerations arent. Thats just lucky genetics.
nobody complains about acceleration in the vacuum, its the combination with other "lucky genetics" that raises the eyebrow, if he was winning races with his accelerations it would be believable (doesnt mean he would be clean, but at least you could make an argument)

its when you start making a checklist, you know somethings up
 
perhaps when you show us some evidence against him people will change their mind
Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.

All of cycling history suggests that when something is unbelievable, you should indeed not believe it. But why would this time be different?

Van Aert right now could beat 2013 Froome while winning bunch sprints as well.
 
Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.

All of cycling history suggests that when something is unbelievable, you should indeed not believe it. But why would this time be different?

Van Aert right now could beat 2013 Froome while winning bunch sprints as well.
he could also beat Eddy Merckx, cycling is evolving like every other sports. Let look at athletics. Is everybody doping that beat WRs from proven dopers.
I mean Pogacar an WVA could be on it but I would like to see at least some evidence not just "unbelivable performance", he cant be better than my favorite rider
 
people like me, clinic has become "a rider is better than my favorite rider, let accuse him of doping". Shouldnt there be at least some evidence before we do that.
Who are my favorite riders then? ;)

I think you are confused about evidence. It sounds like you are asking for irrefutable proof, such as testing results. As opposed to evidence of markedly improved performances, without clear and reasonable explanations. There has been lots of evidence over the past year that things are different.
 
Reactions: Red Rick
he could also beat Eddy Merckx, cycling is evolving like every other sports. Let look at athletics. Is everybody doping that beat WRs from proven dopers.
I mean Pogacar an WVA could be on it but I would like to see at least some evidence not just "unbelivable performance", he cant be better than my favorite rider
Actually, right now cycling is looking worse than Athletics in some regards: there are still WRs in track & field standing from the late 1970s & early 1980s set in sprint/jumping/throwing events by East Germans, Russians, Czechs, and Bulgarians that may not be surpassed for another 50 years. So recent cycling records seem to be getting close to the past era of peak doping. But maybe that’s simply because massive doping with anabolic steroids is harder to get away with than massive doping with blood vector manipulation? Though obviously my pseudo- argument doesn’t hold up when you look at Jamaican sprinters or the distance events.
 
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