Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[pastronef]

So cause it's ridicilous to you, then no one is allowed to be suspicious and to speculate abt it, got it. It has been said and explained here many times, why the motor theory is almost as plausible as some sort of new super dope. And keeping in mind whos behind the team, I have no doubt they would use any possible way to make their golden boy beat the likes of Vinge etc. The results justify the means kind of people they are, no matter how many boundaries had to be crossed.

well, Vingo rides for the former Rabobank team. Plugge is as cut-throat as Gianetti. check the 2023 season.

 

[E_F_]

there are more likely explanations.

For a rider crushing records without breaking a sweat, set by riders using EPO unhindered going all out? That would seem to require some new form of doping, which I don't know about. We know the motors exist... I just don't see how that is so much more likely.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Sure, but motors? No.

Edit: And about PdB, you say that was ridiculous but was it really so much? The moment which did seem ridiculous was when Pogi sat up for a drink on Vingo's wheel.

But we forget that Vingegaard arrived at the Tour after a rushed recovery from horrific injuries suffered in April. Vingegaard still comfortably beat Remco that day on PdB. I would not object here so much today but felt compelled by this completely unfounded motor doping which relies on UCI conspiracy and so called "petrodollars". Those making these claims should provide far more solid reasoning.

Whataboutism here is unavoidable. Vingegaard is the perfect benchmark.

Since you edited your post. The rapid progress that both Pogi and Vingo made on PdB (compared to previous Tour stages and to their rivals) suggest that maybe both had the same "x-factor" then? (motors?)

As for Lombardy, it was absolutely sick as Pogi gained most of his time on flat/rolling terrain (which indicates huge wattage advantage) vs Remco (the best rouler) and other strong rivals. And he didn't even seem too tired at the end. Even his superior watts per kilo engine (which enabled him to be fresher and faster than the rest in the finale) doesn't seem to explain such enormous gaps IMO.

 

[Cookster15]

well, Vingo rides for the former Rabobank team. Plugge is as cut-throat as Gianetti. check the 2023 season.

Nah, Vingo has a 103 VO2 max. That explains everything.

 

[Stablo]

I have yet to be convinced that motors for sure aren't being used. Every time we talk about it, you always end up reverting to your old talking points. I'm receptive to arguments, but only if they're more specific than "the UCI wouldn't risk it" "no one's been caught" "a mechanic could find any motor" "why is no one compaining" "why aren't everyone using them." These arguments do not rule out the possibility of mechanical doping. They make it less likely, sure. But I just don't think they make it unlikely.

This is exactly on point. Last year and well it seems to continue this season aswell after seeing the bad crash in Strade and still literally motoring away with ease again. Almost every other rider seems to be affected by far lesser crashes by far more in the end of the stages/races, but not the miracle man. I for sure cant take anything out of the table. So weird where multiple of the performances.

 

[E_F_]

Nah, Vingo has a 103 VO2 max. That explains everything.

Of course that liar is also doping, and obviously using a motor - insofar as possible, just like all other teams.

 

[Cookster15]

Since you edited your post. The rapid progress that both Pogi and Vingo did on PdB (compared to previous Tour stages and to their rivals) suggest that maybe both had the same "x-factor" then? (motors?)

As for Lombardy, it was absolutely sick as Pogi gained most of his time on flat/rolling terrain (which indicates huge wattage advantage) vs Remco (the best rouler) and other strong rivals. And he didn't even seem too tired at the end. Even his superior watts per kilo engine (which enabled him to be fresher and faster than the rest in the finale) doesn't seem to explain such enormous gaps IMO.

Yes sorry I edited the post as I felt it was needed. As I mentioned in another post I find it very difficult to discuss without using Vingegaard's performances as a benchmark.

 

[E_F_]

. Nothing wrong with my line of argument. Its is based upon simple facts, logic and reason.

Yet you aren't receptive to counter-arguments or interested in backing up your arguments when questioned.

 

[Stablo]

He was what - 18 then? Everyone improves hugely when they are that young. This is the entire flaw with the OPs reasoning.

And presumably we would improve even more if given access to professional team resources. Traditional doping methods used by every team together with natural talent explains Pogacar. Otherwise., how else did certain other presumably non motorized riders push him on occasions? And presumably rivals teams would be concerned and be protesting?

By all means accuse Pogacar of getting away with oxygen vector doping but maintaining this nonsense about motors doesn't help the credibility of anyone claiming it.

His on some better *** than the competition. Period. And some motors introduced for last year isn't out of the table. After the WC 100km attack, the controversy in the finish line made me believe it's possible. Not certain, but i can't definetely rule it out either, after all we saw last season.

 

[Casual cyclist]

Its is ridiculous to keep pushing this motor doping nonsense when there are more likely explanations.

Not really. That's the point. It is a lot more technically feasible to produce the observed result -- those hahaha 8W/kg forays with no sweat or visible strain, with a smile on the weaselly face -- by employing a smallish motor than by coming up with a miraculous biological laws changing doping. I said it a few times already: in the modern progress averse hyper-monopolized world, moral, reputational etc. boundaries are stepped over a lot easier than scientific and technological ones.

 

[Stablo]

But hey we got the conversation really going on here after a quiet and long winter, Chapeau! Let's see what ridicilous WWF-moments we get this year! And to be honest i really hope the competition catches up on whatever team Gianetti was using last year.(i have no trust in UCI putting the brakes on/catching anyone important) After a while it got very frustating and boring to watch, when you started to know that every freaking single race poggie was starting, was going to end in an effortless vroom vroom- moment sooner or later.

 

[Cookster15]

a smallish motor

Obviously we are not going to change your mind. People still think Lee Harvey Oswald didn't do it. What do you mean by "miraculous biological laws changing doping"?

Again, it is impossible to discuss Pogacar without bench marking against other riders, specifically Vingegaard and Remco. Even Remco beat Pantani's PdB record that day.

Can you explain why Visma were so confident Vingegaard could beat Pogacar in the 2024 Tour despite his recovery from massive injuries ? Obviously Visma were also using a small motor? I don't believe that and I don't believe Gianetti and Pogacar were using motors. After stage 19 Pogacar was obviously emptied if you watch the race highlights after the finish. The stage winning gap could be explained by Vingo beginning to fade as a result of his interrupted training. Vingegaard himself admitted Pogacar wasn't better than on PdB he was just "not as strong". In fact over stages 15 to 21 Vingegaard showed clear evidence he was fading. He still rode a heroic race IMO.

 

[E_F_]

Obviously we are not going to change your mind.

I'm happy to have my mind changed..! I would love to get into the nitty gritty.

 

[pastronef]

Not really. That's the point. It is a lot more technically feasible to produce the observed result -- those hahaha 8W/kg forays with no sweat or visible strain, with a smile on the weaselly face -- by employing a smallish motor than by coming up with a miraculous biological laws changing doping. I said it a few times already: in the modern progress averse hyper-monopolized world, moral, reputational etc. boundaries are stepped over a lot easier than scientific and technological ones.

well we saw him suffering a lot last Saturday

 

[Cookster15]

So cause it's ridicilous to you, then no one is allowed to be suspicious and to speculate abt it, got it. It has been said and explained here many times, why the motor theory is almost as plausible as some sort of new super dope. And keeping in mind whos behind the team, I have no doubt they would use any possible way to make their golden boy beat the likes of Vinge etc. The results justify the means kind of people they are, no matter how many boundaries had to be crossed.

And your golden boy? Why have some of you never posted about any other rider? You know we can check posting histories right? It just makes me doubt your motivations. This doesn’t mean you are wrong but it does strongly suggest you are not objective and have other motivations. If it has been “explained here many times” as you claim, I am yet to read any convincing reasoning in The Clinic. This is why I decided to question you guys today.

 

[Stablo]

well we saw him suffering a lot last Saturday

New season brings new hope! Im really hoping that they actually have to play it down a bit for this season, cause the unpleasant voices for them started to come up more and more after every ET performance. Not here alone, but also in other (social)media, even thought most was still the annoying blindless fanboyism.

 

[Cookster15]

New season brings new hope! Im really hoping that they actually have to play it down a bit for this season, cause the unpleasant voices for them started to come up more and more after every ET performance. Not here alone, but also in other (social)media, even thought most was still the annoying blindless fanboyism.

Sure, but from my perspective I saw blind fanboyism in 2022 and 2023. Like those who defended the 2023 Tour Combloux TT. I have grown to like Vingegaard for his tenacity. But not his team. Most likely explanation to me for both Pogacar and Vingegaard is an arms race between UAE and Visma. The fuse was lit when Pog stole the 2020 Tour from Roglic on LPdBF.

 

[Ripper]

well, Vingo rides for the former Rabobank team. Plugge is as cut-throat as Gianetti. check the 2023 season.

Comparing Plugge with Gianetti is a false equivalency. Gianetti has much more evidence in his history of being a corrupt piece of ***t.

Of course Visma is as suspect or more so than the other dominant teams. Some of the stuff they spout is hilarious, and 2023 took the p*ss a fair bit. But UAE TE is a magnitude worse by the very inclusion of Gianetti and Matxin

 

[Stablo]

And your golden boy? Why have some of you never posted about any other rider? You know we can check posting histories right? It just makes me doubt your motivations. This doesn’t mean you are wrong but it does strongly suggest you are not objective and have other motivations. If it has been “explained here many times” as you claim, I am yet to read any convincing reasoning in The Clinic. This is why I decided to question you guys today.

My favourite doesn't really come up here a lot, cause the performances aren't that ET when compared to the piers. I even registered here after reading only for many years. And I write here in Gianetti&Poggie thread cause after last season alone, poggie is the most suspicious one of them all and it's not even close. After Lance I have never been so sure abt any rider that they are levels above the competition also in the cheating department. My conclusions/opinions and suspicion has been on the rise for years, but last year was the final in you're face moment. And I can promise you no matter who the rider/s are who start replicating miracle mans performances from last season, im going to be very doubtfull and suspicious that they are on some sort of advantage compared to the competition.
I'm sorry you dont find any convincing arguments here, I have seen many. I have to ask you, where you on the Lance hypetrain back in the days? For in late teens Stablo it was as annoying as it is now with poggie. I was sure he was on something better, more organized than the competition. And by some standards even then we didn't have any "convincing" evidence/arguments until after years they started to come out. Poggies personality partly image created or totally real is luckily a lot more likeable than Lances was, but on the other hand Lance didn't kill the competition and tension effortless on races for like 80% of the meaningfull(for me) cycling races.

 

[Stablo]

Sure, but from my perspective I saw blind fanboyism in 2022 and 2023. Like those who defended the 2023 Tour Combloux TT. I have grown to like Vingegaard for his tenacity. But not his team. Most likely explanation to me for both Pogacar and Vingegaard is an arms race between UAE and Visma. The fuse was lit when Pog stole the 2020 Tour from Roglic on LPdBF.

I wasn't a super fan of 2022 or 2023 either, but was basically happy cause the fight was at least there and the duels were entertaining, like it wasn't in 2021 or 2024. And to be honest after 2021 I was scared we are having Pharmastrong 2.0 era in the biggest and most beautifull race of the season for years to come, so yes I was happy someone could stop that from happening again. I didn't actually care who it was, but compared to last year I did enjoy those Tours. Hoping to get it back this summer.

 

[Cookster15]

My favourite doesn't really come up here a lot, cause the performances aren't that ET when compared to the piers. I even registered here after reading only for many years. And I write here in Gianetti&Poggie thread cause after last season alone, poggie is the most suspicious one of them all and it's not even close. After Lance I have never been so sure abt any rider that they are levels above the competition also in the cheating department. My conclusions/opinions and suspicion has been on the rise for years, but last year was the final in you're face moment. And I can promise you no matter who the rider/s are who start replicating miracle mans performances from last season, im going to be very doubtfull and suspicious that they are on some sort of advantage compared to the competition.
I'm sorry you dont find any convincing arguments here, I have seen many. I have to ask you, where you on the Lance hypetrain back in the days? For in late teens Stablo it was as annoying as it is now with poggie. I was sure he was on something better, more organized than the competition. And by some standards even then we didn't have any "convincing" evidence/arguments until after years they started to come out. Poggies personality partly image created or totally real is luckily a lot more likeable than Lances was, but on the other hand Lance didn't kill the competition and tension effortless on races for like 80% of the meaningfull(for me) cycling races.

And who might your favourite be? In the Lance days I wrote about other riders. Have you guys ever posted about anyone else other than Pogacar on this forum? Doesn’t seem healthy or objective and detracts from your credibility as fans of cycling.

 

[Stablo]

And who might your favourite be? In the Lance days I wrote about other riders. Have you guys ever posted about anyone else other than Pogacar on this forum? Doesn’t seem healthy or objective and detracts from your credibility as fans of cycling.

My current favourite is Remco, I think i have mentioned that a couple of times. I started hearing the name when he was 16 or so and it has been intresting to follow the story&development and how he answeres the expectations. He also has an entertaining riding style and I mostly dont agree the bs he often gets from his behaviour. Yes he has a bit of a temper and has been sometimes rough on the edges, but sports is about big emotions too. I like his personality to be honest, poggie is symphatetic but I think his over the top with the poster boy image. Poggies racing style has been entertaining too, but slowly the around year domination makes it impossible for me to like him. Last year was the icing on the cake and knowing the people behind him, makes me feel about him like I felt about Lance back in the day. In that time i didnt even have any one favourite over the other, but i remember just hoping that anyone else than Lance would win. Sorry to say but last year turned me to the same with poggie.

In this current haha-era I also hope Remco gets away from Quickstep, otherwise he will never win the Tour unless both Poggie&Vingo get unlucky and he gets lucky. On a level playing field program wise I honestly believe Remco would have a chance against the two current aliens, now it is not happening. So thats why I hate these over the top obvious programs, that most teams have no chance against. In Lances time it was US Postal, now its UAE as the shining star, Visma coming a step behind(last year at least) and others two or more steps. "They all propably dope" never makes the field more fair&even, but quite the opposite actually. And as a sidenote, no I will never wish Remco will have anything to do with Gianetti&Co or winning like Poggie did all of last year. It's just too much to swallow, like it was with Lance and also somewhat with Froomies miraculous "bilhasardia" rise to the top. Vinge only currently gets a pass from me, cause he saved us from Lance 2.0 era regarding the Tour happening all over again.

 

[Stablo]

And who might your favourite be? In the Lance days I wrote about other riders. Have you guys ever posted about anyone else other than Pogacar on this forum? Doesn’t seem healthy or objective and detracts from your credibility as fans of cycling.

Im trying to actually be nice, but youre questioning other posters credibility as cycling fans and that's a bit deep. I registered here cause poggies last season made me mad and sad for the state of the sport i love to watch&follow. It was just too much. That's the reason im mostly posting here if posting at all. I have a two small kids so most of the days i dont have time to really focus on writing here, the reading of the forum and following the races takes more than enough time in a lovely but busy phase of life. And cause i usually watch the races with the same device i also read&write in this forum, it's a bit difficult also really to participate on the race threads, even thou i read the previews and if the race was intresting i can check the commentary after the finish. Don't know even why im explaining myself cause theres nothing weird in my forum behaviour, but hope this helps. Peace.

 

[Casual cyclist]

Obviously we are not going to change your mind. People still think Lee Harvey Oswald didn't do it.

I know. People get all kinds of ideas in their heads. I know some, for example, that still believe that folks in funky white suites walked, jumped and even rode a small open concept EV on the Moon more than 50 years ago.

What do you mean by "miraculous biological laws changing doping"?

I mean the kind of doping that makes a biological organism not just being able of outputting never seen before power but doing it time after time without showing any usual signs of strain or fatigue.

Again, it is impossible to discuss Pogacar without bench marking against other riders, specifically Vingegaard and Remco. Even Remco beat Pantani's PdB record that day.

There can be some similar questions there as well, like, for example, Vingo's TT in 2023 TDF. But the case of Poggie and UAE is much more pure, as many have noted.

Can you explain why Visma were so confident Vingegaard could beat Pogacar in the 2024 Tour despite his recovery from massive injuries ? Obviously Visma were also using a small motor? I don't believe that and I don't believe Gianetti and Pogacar were using motors.

We got that point already.

After stage 19 Pogacar was obviously emptied if you watch the race highlights after the finish.

Nobody said that he was riding 100% on motor assist. He still had to push pedals. So that was in principle possible. The thing is we have little idea about his current purely biological capability.

The stage winning gap could be explained by Vingo beginning to fade as a result of his interrupted training. Vingegaard himself admitted Pogacar wasn't better than on PdB he was just "not as strong". In fact over stages 15 to 21 Vingegaard showed clear evidence he was fading. He still rode a heroic race IMO.

 

[Cookster15]

My current favourite is Remco, I think i have mentioned that a couple of times. I started hearing the name when he was 16 or so and it has been intresting to follow the story&development and how he answeres the expectations. He also has an entertaining riding style and I mostly dont agree the bs he often gets from his behaviour. Yes he has a bit of a temper and has been sometimes rough on the edges, but sports is about big emotions too. I like his personality to be honest, poggie is symphatetic but I think his over the top with the poster boy image. Poggies racing style has been entertaining too, but slowly the around year domination makes it impossible for me to like him. Last year was the icing on the cake and knowing the people behind him, makes me feel about him like I felt about Lance back in the day. In that time i didnt even have any one favourite over the other, but i remember just hoping that anyone else than Lance would win. Sorry to say but last year turned me to the same with poggie.

In this current haha-era I also hope Remco gets away from Quickstep, otherwise he will never win the Tour unless both Poggie&Vingo get unlucky and he gets lucky. On a level playing field program wise I honestly believe Remco would have a chance against the two current aliens, now it is not happening. So thats why I hate these over the top obvious programs, that most teams have no chance against. In Lances time it was US Postal, now its UAE as the shining star, Visma coming a step behind(last year at least) and others two or more steps. "They all propably dope" never makes the field more fair&even, but quite the opposite actually. And as a sidenote, no I will never wish Remco will have anything to do with Gianetti&Co or winning like Poggie did all of last year. It's just too much to swallow, like it was with Lance and also somewhat with Froomies miraculous "bilhasardia" rise to the top. Vinge only currently gets a pass from me, cause he saved us from Lance 2.0 era regarding the Tour happening all over again.

You can't give Vinge a pass for that. From me, his rise was way too convenient after Visma lost Roglic when he crashed. A more likely explanation is Vinge is a very good responder.

Normally I post here at ungodly times of the morning - like between 4 and 5am. Today is an exception because I have the day off.

Agree doping makes for a less even playing field.

Froome isn't comparable to these guys except he transformed from a nobody in 2007.

IMO you should try posting in the other threads. But there is a large dose of subjective opinions on all these riders. In the Tour even Remco beat the Pantani PdB record by a minute. But even before the 2024 Tour started Remco is on record saying he thought Pogacar was near untouchable. As for Pogacar's career trajectory I have to go back to the beginning of his career - when he won Avenir he was like 19 years old. Everyone improves massively at that age, it isn't explained simply by doping let alone motors. Is the OP saying Pog should have shown more potential at 15 years old??

But if not for this motor talk I wouldn't have bothered. Its just too much. Like I said, if you check you will see Pogacar was obviously suffering after stage 19. After that stage Vingo admitted he wasn't as good as on PdB.

ps - thanks for the replies.