Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Netserk]

despite his motor (and the bitter cries of the twitter antidopers when he changed his bike "there you go a new motor") he kept losing ground and was totally fcked at the end, watch the replay before he gets to the -4 km to go.
so where are these invisible motors when you need them?

"It never gets easier, you just go faster."

 

[Krzysztof_O]

It was his second monument loss in 2025 and it's only April. Teddy clearly rides paniagua this year.

 

[Tricycle Rider]

It was his second monument loss in 2025 and it's only April. Teddy clearly rides paniagua this year.

lol... just give Pogi some time, it was only his maiden P-R yesterday!

But seriously, while MVPD looked like a fully grown man Pogi looked like a little kid in comparison body-wise. Doping or not it's just amazing what different body types are capable of and what they are more likely to be suited for.

 

[MortiroloForever]

despite his motor (and the bitter cries of the twitter antidopers when he changed his bike "there you go a new motor") he kept losing ground and was totally fcked at the end, watch the replay before he gets to the -4 km to go.
so where are these invisible motors when you need them?

The team made a mistake and gave him a bike with low battery, so he had to do an unexpected and extra effort that brought him down to earth.

 

[pastronef]

The team made a mistake and gave him a bike with low battery, so he had to do an unexpected and extra effort that brought him down to earth.

 

[hayneplane]

Yes indeed and it's annoying or like you said inaccurete.

It’s not always inaccurate though as to give an example very very few people who watch athletics would deny that Mondo Duplantis is the GOAT in the Pole Vault even though he is still only 25.

 

[E_F_]

It’s not always inaccurate though as to give an example very very few people who watch athletics would deny that Mondo Duplantis is the GOAT in the Pole Vault even though he is still only 25.

It's probably complicated because of the role technology plays in that event.

 

[the delgados]

Joey Pidcock's description of how he finished in last place reminded me of Rough Ride where Paul Kimmage described the massive divide between top-tier riders and professional pack fillers.
It's like watching a kid on tv riding on a bike path parallel to the road where the pros pass by like the kid is standing still.

 

[hayneplane]

It's probably complicated because of the role technology plays in that event.

Consider the dominance over his peers that he has over 100 6 metre clearances whilst the rest of the world in the entire history of the event combined can’t match that.

 

[Unchained]

despite his motor (and the bitter cries of the twitter antidopers when he changed his bike "there you go a new motor") he kept losing ground and was totally fcked at the end, watch the replay before he gets to the -4 km to go.
so where are these invisible motors when you need them?

Anyone paying attention has to acknowledge a few facts..starting here..Pogacar and others have nothing good to say about social media but especially anonymous hate , negative, trolling, content.
So some fairly significant factors, Pogacar raced and succeeded at Paris Roubaix despite millions of people posts telling him he was wrong, stupid for doing so. Proof is proof, posts were poop.
Pogacar has commented on doping and motor use..says it is not happening, doesn't allow media - public into baiting him into additional statements. His record shows that he is getting results personally, for team and sponsors, lending his experience and expertise to help veteran and new developing riders. So not wasting a calorie doing negative things for the most part. With some exceptions like federation, Olympics dust up, it happened he and his girlfriend at first opportunity, said.. It happened, it's over, move on, we have. Importantly.. No hard feelings.
There is a level of futility if negative press are meant to get a reaction from Pogacar and surrounding actors. Almost as if UAE is as good at ...killing with kindness as they are at racing bikes. They are concentrating on their goals and not playing in other venues like internet back and forth banter that can't help them win races. The discipline displayed on and off the bike is phenomenal, historically maybe nothing like it in bicycle racing history.
Bit of an echo chamber with no feedback.. Race officials are not getting dirty urine or blood, inspectors are finding motors.. And races and UCI are allowing media, public at a very close distance to witness bike inspections.. All without any discovery or motor discovery..
In recent history a technique of saying something false a billion times until it becomes true.. It might work in politics but not pedaling.. Posting Pogacar is doping so far is fruitless..

 

[E_F_]

Consider the dominance over his peers that he has over 100 6 metre clearances whilst the rest of the world in the entire history of the event combined can’t match that.

Some guy called Thomas Ray set 9 WRs in a row over a period of 8 years. Sergey Bubka set the record 13 times in a row over a period of 10 years. He literally had the record for 30 years.

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

In recent history a technique of saying something false a billion times until it becomes true.. It might work in politics but not pedaling.. Posting Pogacar is doping so far is fruitless..

It worked in Lances case for a while as well. It does not follow that because of this everyone who says they don't dope dope, neither does follow that whoever says they are clean is clean.
That being said: there is no factual basis on which can make the empirical induction that Pogacar is clean, because the testing regime is not perfect and will never be. There is though a factual basis to entertain the notion that he is doped, and be highly doubtful and suspicious of the explanations given as for why the things are looking the way they look right now.
I mean: even to the most well meaning person when it comes to believing everything is done without PEDs, the jump in performance we've seen over the lasst half a decade but especially the jump from 2023 to 2024 in overall(!) performance in the least should be stunning, if not outright suspicious. To insinuate that everyone who belongs into the doubters camp, even the ones who are convinced they are using PEDs (count me in on that) is just repeating baseless lies to make false statements true, is really shooting far over the limit of what is justified as an assertion here. As to why it it not baseless to draw the conclusion that most likely PEDs are involved, the examples of posts explaining that are legion.
So I am a bit perplexed that you are so dismissive about all of this.

 

[hayneplane]

Some guy called Thomas Ray set 9 WRs in a row over a period of 8 years. Sergey Bubka set the record 13 times in a row over a period of 10 years. He literally had the record for 30 years.

Mondo has set 8 world records between 2020 and 2025 and is only just entering the prime of his career physically. If he has the motivation he will set marks that last until beyond 2050.

Bubka was incredible and did almost certainly leave a bit on the table by doing the incremental record attempts for the WR bonus money when he likely had the shape to go a fair bit higher.

 

[Unchained]

It worked in Lances case for a while as well. It does not follow that because of this everyone who says they don't dope dope, neither does follow that whoever says they are clean is clean.
That being said: there is no factual basis on which can make the empirical induction that Pogacar is clean, because the testing regime is not perfect and will never be. There is though a factual basis to entertain the notion that he is doped, and be highly doubtful and suspicious of the explanations given as for why the things are looking the way they look right now.
I mean: even to the most well meaning person when it comes to believing everything is done without PEDs, the jump in performance we've seen over the lasst half a decade but especially the jump from 2023 to 2024 in overall(!) performance in the least should be stunning, if not outright suspicious. To insinuate that everyone who belongs into the doubters camp, even the ones who are convinced they are using PEDs (count me in on that) is just repeating baseless lies to make false statements true, is really shooting far over the limit of what is justified as an assertion here. As to why it it not baseless to draw the conclusion that most likely PEDs are involved, the examples of posts explaining that are legion.
So I am a bit perplexed that you are so dismissive about all of this.

While everything you say can be true, Lance is completely different from Pogacar mostly the amount of money that was- is involved. If you look sponsorship stream.. Pogacar has a handful of the money involved with Armstrong industries.. Livestrong, Nike, Gatorade, Trek, Amgen,ect had way way more skin in the game.
Pogacar is making $6 million.. He is selling Colnagos..wearing clothes, helmets and shoes with very limited marketing. Armstrong was making $21 million in salary alone. All the other associated marketing surrounding the cycling and cancer story are were in the 100s of millions. So if the UCI is keeping a Slovenian secret the amounts of money are tiny compared to LA bank rolls.. Unsure for certain but likely Armstrong is still making more per year than Pogacar..he has hit with some winners from his investment groups. Not saying that Pog isn't gassed, not saying that thousands are not ignoring violations and failed inspections, turning a blind eye to motors..just saying if that's true, they are in a criminal enterprise for pennies comparatively.

 

[Unchained]

It worked in Lances case for a while as well. It does not follow that because of this everyone who says they don't dope dope, neither does follow that whoever says they are clean is clean.
That being said: there is no factual basis on which can make the empirical induction that Pogacar is clean, because the testing regime is not perfect and will never be. There is though a factual basis to entertain the notion that he is doped, and be highly doubtful and suspicious of the explanations given as for why the things are looking the way they look right now.
I mean: even to the most well meaning person when it comes to believing everything is done without PEDs, the jump in performance we've seen over the lasst half a decade but especially the jump from 2023 to 2024 in overall(!) performance in the least should be stunning, if not outright suspicious. To insinuate that everyone who belongs into the doubters camp, even the ones who are convinced they are using PEDs (count me in on that) is just repeating baseless lies to make false statements true, is really shooting far over the limit of what is justified as an assertion here. As to why it it not baseless to draw the conclusion that most likely PEDs are involved, the examples of posts explaining that are legion.
So I am a bit perplexed that you are so dismissive about all of this.

And for reference each time Armstrong starts crying about unfair treatment.. Why only me? What about everyone else?... ect, ect he often brings up Trek, Nike and half dozen others who made hundreds of millions from the colluded cancer campaign.. Sure Colnago is probably selling more bikes..MET is likely selling more helmets..Scicon has sunglasses on more faces..But compared to Trek,Giro,Oakley, Bell,ect nowhere close in money changing hands..Richard Mille? Who knows? Lance was selling Timex and TAG Heuer..so maybe a few hundred to a couple of thousand. Mille also sponsors F1, sailing, polo and puts name on bike handlebar stem it does not sell..? But a decent Richard Mille watch is a couple hundred thousand dollars, models in exotic materials and diamonds cost over a million.. If Pogacar is selling those, not to me!!
And if Tadej gets popped, he will be glad that he didn't talk to, sell his story to hundreds of millions like Armstrong did..nobody is mad at George Hindcappie, or Valverde..Ulrich can go for a coffee without someone yelling " doper" at him.

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

While everything you say can be true, Lance is completely different from Pogacar mostly the amount of money that was- is involved. If you look sponsorship stream.. Pogacar has a handful of the money involved with Armstrong industries.. Livestrong, Nike, Gatorade, Trek, Amgen,ect had way way more skin in the game.
Pogacar is making $6 million.. He is selling Colnagos..wearing clothes, helmets and shoes with very limited marketing. Armstrong was making $21 million in salary alone. All the other associated marketing surrounding the cycling and cancer story are were in the 100s of millions. So if the UCI is keeping a Slovenian secret the amounts of money are tiny compared to LA bank rolls.. Unsure for certain but likely Armstrong is still making more per year than Pogacar..he has hit with some winners from his investment groups. Not saying that Pog isn't gassed, not saying that thousands are not ignoring violations and failed inspections, turning a blind eye to motors..just saying if that's true, they are in a criminal enterprise for pennies comparatively.

Ah, this was specifically about motors, I took it more as a general take on the doping suspicion. My bad. I think they dope physiologically not with motors, motors don't make a lot of sense to me for reasons.
But as I pointed out in my reply to one of your other posts a few days back, I think there are pretty solid material reasons as to why the UCI would ignore stuff, or even hide it, maybe for free up to some point.
It's just stunning to me that we, going by test results, seem to live in the cleanest of all eras. That combined with the development of performances makes me very doubtful that the testing regime is working, for whatever reason (undetectable doping, hiding results, whatever).

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

And for reference each time Armstrong starts crying about unfair treatment.. Why only me? What about everyone else?... ect, ect he often brings up Trek, Nike and half dozen others who made hundreds of millions from the colluded cancer campaign.. Sure Colnago is probably selling more bikes..MET is likely selling more helmets..Scicon has sunglasses on more faces..But compared to Trek,Giro,Oakley, Bell,ect nowhere close in money changing hands..Richard Mille? Who knows? Lance was selling Timex and TAG Heuer..so maybe a few hundred to a couple of thousand. Mille also sponsors F1, sailing, polo and puts name on bike handlebar stem it does not sell..? But a decent Richard Mille watch is a couple hundred thousand dollars, models in exotic materials and diamonds cost over a million.. If Pogacar is selling those, not to me!!
And if Tadej gets popped, he will be glad that he didn't talk to, sell his story to hundreds of millions like Armstrong did..nobody is mad at George Hindcappie, or Valverde..Ulrich can go for a coffee without someone yelling " doper" at him.

True. My point wasn't about him being in any way similar to Pogacar though, but addressed at "In recent history a technique of saying something false a billion times until it becomes true.. It might work in politics but not pedaling.", because, as I pointed out, I don't believe a lot of epistemic value comes from this statement alone. And the insinuation that people here would indulge in such a practice to me seems pretty unfair.

 

[MikeS369]

While everything you say can be true, Lance is completely different from Pogacar mostly the amount of money that was- is involved. If you look sponsorship stream.. Pogacar has a handful of the money involved with Armstrong industries.. Livestrong, Nike, Gatorade, Trek, Amgen,ect had way way more skin in the game.
Pogacar is making $6 million.. He is selling Colnagos..wearing clothes, helmets and shoes with very limited marketing. Armstrong was making $21 million in salary alone. All the other associated marketing surrounding the cycling and cancer story are were in the 100s of millions. So if the UCI is keeping a Slovenian secret the amounts of money are tiny compared to LA bank rolls.. Unsure for certain but likely Armstrong is still making more per year than Pogacar..he has hit with some winners from his investment groups. Not saying that Pog isn't gassed, not saying that thousands are not ignoring violations and failed inspections, turning a blind eye to motors..just saying if that's true, they are in a criminal enterprise for pennies comparatively.

Right, because who would think cheating for 6 mil+ is worth it. Give me a brake. People cheat just to win even if no money is involved.

 

[Unchained]

Right, because who would think cheating for 6 mil+ is worth it. Give me a brake. People cheat just to win even if no money is involved.

Your position is 1000% valid.
In context drive over to the dumb doped master thread showing middle aged men getting fully gassed to win a ribbon, trophy or handshake.
Certainly valid that cheating for the sake of cheating is a thing. Cheating for money is a thing.
Thousands of race officials, current and past mechanics, UCI, other doping agencies in dozens of countries all conspiring to benefit Pog or Giannetti is remote.. All Pog ex teammates know he is cheating and are staying silent?
but using your number..$6 million as the numerator and the thousands of people winking, taking an envelope full of money makes it farfetched to ridiculous.
UAE has reserves that many have estimated at trillions, w individual wealth in the tens of billions. So yes someone in the shadows could be making protection and participation payments to bicycle inspectors or people responsible for Pogacar pee..yes it could be happening.. I doubt it.
And all this is sliding scale.. Pogacar is currently making @$6 million in salary.. But to back date the conspiracy, sounds like he was able to employ thousands in silence w far less money 2,3,4 years ago..If you believe that there is something there.. Cool but paying people off the amounts of money look really really small..

 

[YellowSocks]

Your position is 1000% valid.
In context drive over to the dumb doped master thread showing middle aged men getting fully gassed to win a ribbon, trophy or handshake.
Certainly valid that cheating for the sake of cheating is a thing. Cheating for money is a thing.
Thousands of race officials, current and past mechanics, UCI, other doping agencies in dozens of countries all conspiring to benefit Pog or Giannetti is remote.. All Pog ex teammates know he is cheating and are staying silent?
but using your number..$6 million as the numerator and the thousands of people winking, taking an envelope full of money makes it farfetched to ridiculous.
UAE has reserves that many have estimated at trillions, w individual wealth in the tens of billions. So yes someone in the shadows could be making protection and participation payments to bicycle inspectors or people responsible for Pogacar pee..yes it could be happening.. I doubt it.
And all this is sliding scale.. Pogacar is currently making @$6 million in salary.. But to back date the conspiracy, sounds like he was able to employ thousands in silence w far less money 2,3,4 years ago..If you believe that there is something there.. Cool but paying people off the amounts of money look really really small..

The cycling world is protecting cycling. That has always been this way.

 

[pastronef]

Dire times when you have to root for a soulless shell like MVDP just so that this guy doesn't (quite literally) win every monument he ever enters in the last 3 years.

my MVDP dislike is bigger than my UAE dislike. so I'll cheer for Pog in Sanremo next year

 

[Ripper]

my MVDP dislike is bigger than my UAE dislike. so I'll cheer for Pog in Sanremo next year

I am curious what drives the MVDP dislike (and I assume that speaking about it candidly means it should stay in the clinic)?

 

[pastronef]

I am curious what drives the MVDP dislike (and I assume that speaking about it candidly means it should stay in the clinic)?

absolutely not Clinic related. I don't like the "golden boy" aura, him smashing every CX race with a finger in his nose, his super car, his team. no hate, no clinic accusations. I just hope sometimes someone can beat him, and it rarely happens.
talking about Pog, I know and I rode with a former UAE team staff member, I'm not a Jumbo-Roglic fan so I enjoyed Pog winning that Tour. (I also disliked his Giro where he came to have a stroll around Italy, it was too easy it looked unreal)
sometimes the fans "likes and dislikes" are not easy to explain, or there are no true reasons, but sympathy and subtle things.
just check how Ineos pollution was perceived vs Total pollution. nice French team vs the British baddies. and none of the sudden new-born-environment-aware Ineos detractors had anything to say about Total (French coast oil disasterc etc...) NOTHING
so the like-dislike is very subjective

 

[Rackham]

I am curious what drives the MVDP dislike (and I assume that speaking about it candidly means it should stay in the clinic)?

I'll speak for myself here and say MvdP is too clinical. And I don't mean in the clinic sense (well, not entirely anyway but that's not what makes me slightly ambivalent on the rider because let's face it they're all doing it) I mean literally he's from a family of cycling champs and was pretty much predestined to become a champion himself.

It's the equivalent of getting excited when the son of a former F1 driver (or from another motorsports discipline, like Carlos Sainz) becomes a motorsport star. I mean cool, I guess? It's just not particularly exciting or inspiring as a life story.

It's got that whole born with a silver spoon thing going on.

 

[cnort]

Imho the whole term is stupid to use, cause usually you can't clearly say that one athlete is the goat for certain, too many variables involved. There are only a few (if any) you can say was/is clearly the goat of their sport.

The funny thing with cycling is that it is a sport in the unusual position of having one person who appears to be a head and shoulders above the rest. Merckx's palmares are stunning whatever way you look at it. Some argue that Pogacar is en route to equalling or surpassing Merckx's career, but he is some way off that yet.

Whatever cocktail Tadej is on, legal and illegal, must be powerful stuff. He might be a rare super-responder, but surely it will shorten his career. Valverde and Rebellin maybe demonstrate that doping can keep you going longer, but all that year-round, all-out, gung-ho racing-to-win that Tadej does must be demanding.

Time will tell...