Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Red Rick]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1915184790703317472

View: https://x.com/triviumcolombia/status/1915184790703317472?s=19


It certainly looks suspicious and needs to get more attention, ad the pressing for that otherwordly seated attack where others just vanish for the distance. I also saw calculations on X that during the attack he was putting 15-20% more power/speed compared to the competition. I think the difference is too big to be achieved by better PEDs only. This UAE Gianetti&Dopacar combination is making me sick. Was waiting for even LBL, but now i feel like watching a short replay, cause this clown is attending there too.
P.S. presses the exact sama position on handlebars for both sides.

20% more when you can attack when the rest is on the limit is absolutely nothing, that's basically every attack ever.

And this is where the talk of motors completely loses me. Any objectivity and context is replaced by pure dogmatic thinking, and the Clinic becomes everything outsiders like to think it is.

 

[Stablo]

20% more when you can attack when the rest is on the limit is absolutely nothing, that's basically every attack ever.

And this is where the talk of motors completely loses me. Any objectivity and context is replaced by pure dogmatic thinking, and the Clinic becomes everything outsiders like to think it is.

So everybody is always on the limit and Poggie just never is while doing his natural thing, gotcha.
Did you even watch the link of weirdly placed pressing of the thumbs and combine that with an exactly same moment seated attack? Getting tens of meters distance in a few seconds quite effortless. Never seen that kind of ease at the Mur de Huy, but yes it's Dopacar with the unhuman super attacks again after again with just some (better) juice.
If there is or has been an example of an E-bike use, that thing from yeasterday is the clearest one of them. Look at it, the pressing and then vroom vroom on the saddle.

Off course we have some people here that know for sure motors aren't and haven't even been used. I guess they have ripped apart for example Poggies bike and seen there's nothing.

 

[Divergence]

So everybody is always on the limit and Poggie just never is while doing his natural thing, gotcha.
Did you even watch the link of weirdly placed pressing of the thumbs and combine that with an exactly same moment seated attack? Getting tens of meters distance in a few seconds quite effortless. Never seen that kind of ease at the Mur de Huy, but yes it's Dopacar with the unhuman super attacks again after again with just some (better) juice.
If there is or has been an example of an E-bike use, that thing from yeasterday is the clearest one of them. Look at it, the pressing and then vroom vroom on the saddle.

Off course we have some people here that know for sure motors aren't and haven't even been used. I guess they have ripped apart for example Poggies bike and seen there's nothing.

At the moment, the preponderance of evidence is that he is not using a motor, so unless you have taken his bike apart and found one your last line of reasoning is void.
Additionally, the Dura Ace shifters have a button on top of the hoods (I use them to change screens on my Edge) so even if he pressed them(I am not even sure he was pressing on the hoods, it is a normal hand position that I use sometimes as well) it could have been to either shift a gear of swap the screen.
Lastly, gaining 20% on a 20s interval whilst seated (in the wet also) is nothing that is hugely noteworthy. Many riders have done it.

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

At the moment, the preponderance of evidence is that he is not using a motor, so unless you have taken his bike apart and found one your last line of reasoning is void.
Additionally, the Dura Ace shifters have a button on top of the hoods (I use them to change screens on my Edge) so even if he pressed them(I am not even sure he was pressing on the hoods, it is a normal hand position that I use sometimes as well) it could have been to either shift a gear of swap the screen.
Lastly, gaining 20% on a 20s interval whilst seated (in the wet also) is nothing that is hugely noteworthy. Many riders have done it.

To me, in the shot from above before the attack, he clearly seems to shift gear imo, than he looks behind, see's there's already noone on his wheel and than in an instant the attack starts, with a gear granting him a high cadence. That's what I saw, you can also see how he's moving about on the bike, he just doesn't go out of the saddle in that moment, but later, after looking back like twice more, he goes out of the saddle for a while.

Maybe if someone pointed out what was especially motor-esque I could look at it again and at least see what is meant. Beacuse he clearly is using all of his body, moving quite a bit for his standard, and pulling like a madman on his bike, even though seated. Overall his movement during the attack looks pretty violent to me. I honestly don't understand that for some this seems to be invisible. But okay, for me the motor-thingy seems to be invisible, so pointers please.

 

[Stablo]

Well some here think the attack wasn't anything special, then some think it's one the sickest examples of recent years, mainly done by this one dirty cheater again after again. There was even the scrutiny with the bike after WC last year. That and the Tour got me convinced among many things, that the e-bike cant be ruled out either. Yesterday then was another prime example.
And. They. Can't. Bust. The. Biggest. Star.
It would be too damaging. What a freaking sh*tshow this has become.

And to be honest, yes that thumb pressing on the exact moment of the attack is suspicious as hell. Even before that evidence, the attack looked veeryy suspicious, like many mentioned yeasterday.

 

[Stablo]

To me, in the shot from above before the attack, he clearly seems to shift gear imo, than he looks behind, see's there's already noone on his wheel and than in an instant the attack starts, with a gear granting him a high cadence. That's what I saw, you can also see how he's moving about on the bike, he just doesn't go out of the saddle in that moment, but later, after looking back like twice more, he goes out of the saddle for a while.

Maybe if someone pointed out what was especially motor-esque I could look at it again and at least see what is meant. Beacuse he clearly is using all of his body, moving quite a bit for his standard, and pulling like a madman on his bike, even though seated. Overall his movement during the attack looks pretty violent to me. I honestly don't understand that for some this seems to be invisible. But okay, for me the motor-thingy seems to be invisible, so pointers please.

Oh yeah it was completely natural, i see it now. So nothing to see here in this part of the forum. All can go to the fanboy conversation to praise Poggie-boy and his otherwordly natural boundaries breaking talent. Geez. It was a gear change afterall. That explains the past few seasons of effortless around year wins/attacks.
P.S. That attack had nothing to do with an natural looking one, if the irony didn't open. Vroom vroom.

 

[Abedfo]

Name a clean cyclist in history who turns up every race day in perfect condition and on every terrain blitzs everyone.

Could you imagine contador beating boonen or cancellara on the stones or Armstrong beating museeuw it's crazy.

 

[Netserk]

Oh yeah it was completely natural, i see it now. So nothing to see here in this part of the forum. All can go to the fanboy conversation to praise Poggie-boy and his otherwordly natural boundaries breaking talent. Geez. It was a gear change afterall. That explains the past few seasons of effortless around year wins/attacks.
P.S. That attack had nothing to do with an natural looking one, if the irony didn't open. Vroom vroom.

Natural as in doping-fuelled? Yeah, it looked natural to me.

 

[the delgados]

To me, in the shot from above before the attack, he clearly seems to shift gear imo, than he looks behind, see's there's already noone on his wheel and than in an instant the attack starts, with a gear granting him a high cadence. That's what I saw, you can also see how he's moving about on the bike, he just doesn't go out of the saddle in that moment, but later, after looking back like twice more, he goes out of the saddle for a while.

Maybe if someone pointed out what was especially motor-esque I could look at it again and at least see what is meant. Beacuse he clearly is using all of his body, moving quite a bit for his standard, and pulling like a madman on his bike, even though seated. Overall his movement during the attack looks pretty violent to me. I honestly don't understand that for some this seems to be invisible. But okay, for me the motor-thingy seems to be invisible, so pointers please.

I agree about the part where he seemed to be fighting with the bike to get it to move forward, but we're talking the Mur here. I've never been, but it looks like they're climbing a wall, especially near the end.
But the way he powered away without any concern about his competitors made it look like a Zwift commercial. Also, check him out when he crests the top of the climb just before the finish: His mouth is barely open. No gasping for breath; no chest heaves; nothing other than a lackadaisical "yeah, whatever" winning salute.

 

[Netserk]

I agree about the part where he seemed to be fighting with the bike to get it to move forward, but we're talking the Mur here. I've never been, but it looks like they're climbing a wall, especially near the end.
But the way he powered away without any concern about his competitors made it look like a Zwift commercial. Also, check him out when he crests the top of the climb just before the finish: His mouth is barely open. No gasping for breath; no chest heaves; nothing other than a lackadaisical "yeah, whatever" winning salute.

I think that was the point. He wanted to show how superior he is after Amstel, so after a hard attack he makes a point of closing his mouth as he crosses the line.

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

Oh yeah it was completely natural, i see it now. So nothing to see here in this part of the forum. All can go to the fanboy conversation to praise Poggie-boy and his otherwordly natural boundaries breaking talent. Geez. It was a gear change afterall. That explains the past few seasons of effortless around year wins/attacks.
P.S. That attack had nothing to do with an natural looking one, if the irony didn't open. Vroom vroom.

Well, if you happend to have read any on my postings on the matter of Pogacar and doping, you'd know my position and wouldn't be so condescending. But be my guest and think of me what you like.

I wasn't saying it was natural, I was saying I didn't see the motor-esque part as in: "there it looks like a thing done by an actual motor!". So I described my perception of the scene, not my judgement about it. It wasn't meant as provocation but as an actual question as to what it was that is supposed to be the smoking gun for the motor theory. I just don't see it, to me it looks like hes switching gears and than puts in a huge effort to get the gap. Of course the gap is huge, and his domination crushing, but I don't see how that's a smoking gun given that he also didn't beat the best possible opposition in weather that has always favored him. And again - I am not saying 'everything is natural' - all I am saying is I literally don't seem to see what others are seing when I watch this footage concerning the motor suspicion. So I asked for pointers what to look for, if there is anything to specifically look for other than "vroom vroom".

 

[the delgados]

I think that was the point. He wanted to show how superior he is after Amstel, so after a hard attack he makes a point of closing his mouth as he crosses the line.

Mission accomplished!

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

I agree about the part where he seemed to be fighting with the bike to get it to move forward, but we're talking the Mur here. I've never been, but it looks like they're climbing a wall, especially near the end.
But the way he powered away without any concern about his competitors made it look like a Zwift commercial. Also, check him out when he crests the top of the climb just before the finish: His mouth is barely open. No gasping for breath; no chest heaves; nothing other than a lackadaisical "yeah, whatever" winning salute.

Well, I don't know how one can see concern about competitors of an attacker other than him looking back. He did that 1 time before the attackt and 7 times that were televised before he reached the finish. That's actually looking back quite a lot imo, if you have no concern for the competition.

 

[AttaqueDeRolland]

Name a clean cyclist in history who turns up every race day in perfect condition and on every terrain blitzs everyone.

Could you imagine contador beating boonen or cancellara on the stones or Armstrong beating museeuw it's crazy.

That's the thing that bothers me the most about his fans and all observers of the sport who are staying quiet right now, if they're not outright cheering him on in support.

Imagine the outrage if Froomey had gone to Roubaix 10 years ago and just smashed the likes of Degenkolb, Štybar, Sagan, and only been beaten by Van Avermaet because he went too fast in a corner on the cobbles. Just imagine for a second what people would have said about that. Nobody would have even questioned for a second if that was legitimate.

Or let's turn it around for a second, imagine if Nils Politt or Mads Pedersen turned up at the Tour this summer and absolutely destroyed riders like Landa, Yates & Yates, Ayuso, or Carlos Rodríguez in the GC. Who, in their right mind, would believe that as legitimate?

Nibali tried pivoting towards the cobbles, and in return, he had to completely and utterly sacrifice his GC-hopes in that season. Nibali didn't even finish in the top-20 of Dauphiné in 2018 when he went in on De Ronde. He was beaten by Léo Vincent, and you're absolutely allowed to right now say: "Who the hell is Léo Vincent?" Similarly, Wiggo was nowhere near being a GC-contender in 2014 when he had his best year at Roubaix, finishing almost half an hour down on Contador in Tirreno-Adriatico right along the likes of Cancellara and Stijn Devolder.

For 30 years, it's been widely agreed that the sport has become so professionalized that you cannot compete in all terrains as used to be the case. Riders are specialized to such a degree that you just cannot be the best at everything. You can be very good at a lot of things, think of Van Avermaet, Sagan or Cort, but you just cannot climb with the featherweights in the Alps one day and then outride the heavyweights on the cobbles the next day. In fact, I'd say that Wiggins' career - and the same goes for G - perfectly embodies the concept that it's one or the other.

But then this guy comes along, all logic completely flies out the window, and *** nobody is questioning it? Just what the ***?

 

[the delgados]

Well, I don't know how one can see concern about competitors of an attacker other than him looking back. He did that 1 time before the attackt and 7 times that were televised before he reached the finish. That's actually looking back quite a lot imo, if you have no concern for the competition.

All true.
I guess I'm fixated on the part where Healy tried his best to create some daylight between him and Pogi. Pogi did not even glance his way. It was like the competitor did not exist. Pogi looked like he was checking out text messages on his phone.

 

[QueenStagiaire]

Nibali tried pivoting towards the cobbles, and in return, he had to completely and utterly sacrifice his GC-hopes in that season. Nibali didn't even finish in the top-20 of Dauphiné in 2018 when he went in on De Ronde. He was beaten by Léo Vincent, and you're absolutely allowed to right now say: "Who the hell is Léo Vincent?"

Did he make a deal with the devil that he was only allowed to do Flanders if he broke a bone on Alpe d‘Huez in a fan incident? Or what does ‚completely and utterly sacrifice’ mean?He finished 7th on the Alpe at 13 seconds down with a broken vertebra. If we consider that Nibali nearly always peaked in the 3rd week and how horrible Froome looked in the Pyrenees, he‘d have had a very good chance at a podium in the Tour de France when he should have been past his prime by that point of his career. How did you know that he finished outside the Top 20 of the Dauphiné without looking at or remembering his Tour results?

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

All true.
I guess I'm fixated on the part where Healy tried his best to create some daylight between him and Pogi. Pogi did not even glance his way. It was like the competitor did not exist. Pogi looked like he was checking out text messages on his phone.

I understand. To me it looks like he goes a bit faster right from the moment that Healy enters his peripheral vision, so much so that he keeps up, he then switches gears, looks back to see where Remco is I suppose, and instantly goes after he looked back.
Like don't get me wrong, his dominance looks absurd, but I do think he did take his competition into account.
But that's all just based on what we see, we don't know what went on on the radio, we don't know what the plan for the Mur was, if he always wanted to attack there for example, we also of course cannot read the riders thoughts just by looking at the screen. That's why I've never been to fond of the eye test personally. Also remember Kohl? He looked like was dying on the *** bike all the time, while being high on CERA.

 

[Stablo]

Well, if you happend to have read any on my postings on the matter of Pogacar and doping, you'd know my position and wouldn't be so condescending. But be my guest and think of me what you like.

I wasn't saying it was natural, I was saying I didn't see the motor-esque part as in: "there it looks like a thing done by an actual motor!". So I described my perception of the scene, not my judgement about it. It wasn't meant as provocation but as an actual question as to what it was that is supposed to be the smoking gun for the motor theory. I just don't see it, to me it looks like hes switching gears and than puts in a huge effort to get the gap. Of course the gap is huge, and his domination crushing, but I don't see how that's a smoking gun given that he also didn't beat the best possible opposition in weather that has always favored him. And again - I am not saying 'everything is natural' - all I am saying is I literally don't seem to see what others are seing when I watch this footage concerning the motor suspicion. So I asked for pointers what to look for, if there is anything to specifically look for other than "vroom vroom".

I have seen your positioning towards Poggie, but i think your post was undermining the unnaturality off yet again one of his super effortless attacks, leaving really great riders eating the dust.

The E-Bike things is not really like a "motor" when it kicks, it gives you extra wattage but you still have the work to do. Would look just like this seated attack from Tadej. If you try an electric bike you will notice. You still have to be in a very good shape, to get up climbs like Mur with that speed, even if you have some assistance. The electric assistance would explain all these senseless attacks, cause it surely looks like it.

 

[AttaqueDeRolland]

Did he make a deal with the devil that he was only allowed to do Flanders if he broke a bone on Alpe d‘Huez in a fan incident? Or what does ‚completely and utterly sacrifice’ mean?He finished 7th on the Alpe at 13 seconds down with a broken vertebra. If we consider that Nibali nearly always peaked in the 3rd week and how horrible Froome looked in the Pyrenees, he‘d have had a very good chance at a podium in the Tour de France when he should have been past his prime by that point of his career. How did you know that he finished outside the Top 20 of the Dauphiné without looking at or remembering his Tour results?

That was impressive, yes. I like how you're completely ignoring or perhaps conveniently omitting how he lost a minute on G the stage before, putting him more than two minutes behind in the GC.

I guess it's possible that he would have podiumed. In that case, we would have one of the absolute best Grand Tour riders in modern history finishing third in the Tour, nowhere near winning it, most likely, in a season where he finished outside the top-20 in De Ronde, losing over a minute to Terpstra. So yes, I'd say it's a fairly accurate description that he sacrificed his Grand Tour ambitions in his pursuit of the cobbles, which didn't even come close to succeeding.

Now, compare this to Pogi, who not only succeeds on the cobbles, he dominates, and then he also goes and dominates the Grand Tours.

I also love how you're completely oblivious to the subliminal message in the above that Nibali was a highly controversial rider throughout his entire career in terms of doping suspicions and allegations, and yet he couldn't do it.

But surely, the guy from Aderlass-territory is cleanly doing what the likes of Nibali failed to do, just eating oats and drinking cherry juice. 🤡

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

I have seen your positioning towards Poggie, but i think your post was undermining the unnaturality off yet again one of his super effortless attacks, leaving really great riders eating the dust.

The E-Bike things is not really like a "motor" when kicks, it gives you extra wattage but you still have the work. Would look just like this seated attack from Tadej. If you try an electric bike you will notice. You still have to be in a very good shape, to get up climbs like Mur with that speed, even if you have some assistance. The electric assistance would explain all these senseless attacks, cause it surely looks like it.

All I was trying to do was contribute my perception, I didn't intend to undermine anything, but my impression is that so far we can't even agree on the discription of what happend yet, so the objectivation of perception fails in the first instant so far. That's not a good ground to make judgements on. It's also not wrong to be skeptical about assumptions one makes, or others make, especially if the empirical grounds are not established yet.

The motivation for my post was the supposed observation that he pushed a button to get extra power, and this could be somehow "seen" in the footage. Also people mentioned that it looked to easy, effortless whatever. So I pointed out that he did look like doing a real hard effort. I am aware of Ebikes giving you more whats rather than a kicker. Why he'd not put that one before he attacks is oblivious to me tough, we only push the "nuke" button before you go. What's the assumption here? Battery power issues?
Because basically to me it follows from what you are saying and what I was aware of so far about "motors" or Ebikes, is that because it provides you only with extra watts, and because you still have to make an effort, one cannot see if it's assisted or not. Yes he sat down for most of the climb, but it's not so that steep passages are always climbed out of the saddle at all. Often enough we see riders sitting through them.
Your points about the abnormality of Pogacars attacks of course still stands, but there we are in the realm of inferences which aren't based on an "eye test" very much at all. And I am not claiming that Ebikes are not a possible explanation for stuff we've seen. But I am saying that given what I so far have read and understood about the matter, I have a really hard time believing that an eye test is gonna get us far. Or the mere fact that a rider is superior on a climb to others. And yes I know he does that regularly, so that it's suspicious in it self, but I am still missing any strong reasons to infer from all of that, that motor doping is going on.

Also the winners bikes often (or even always at bigger races?) get checked for motors. So on Top of inferences about motos, we also have to make inferences about cooperation between everyone who's cheking out the bikes and the cheaters. Or is there a way to construct the scenario otherwise?

 

[fenns]

Amazing performance - maybe his best ever apart from Plateau de Beille 2024.

Generally he's improved greatly from pre 2024

​

 

[SorelyBoy]

Watch the video of his final acceleration at 0.25 speed. It looks even more ridiculous in that he picks up speed without any apparent effort at all, and up an insanely steep slope that his legs don’t even appear to acknowledge. Everyone else looks normal in that they’re fighting their bike to get up the hill. Pogacar most certainly does not.

 

[topcat]

Tailwind on Huy yesterday. 65 year old Roglic wasn't there. Pog came in fresh. Not surprising.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

After riding Amstel paniagua (plus beer, just for fun) maybe Teddy used a bit of rocket fuel yesterday. Bold prediction: Sunday will not be paniagua.

 

[Stablo]

All I was trying to do was contribute my perception, I didn't intend to undermine anything, but my impression is that so far we can't even agree on the discription of what happend yet, so the objectivation of perception fails in the first instant so far. That's not a good ground to make judgements on. It's also not wrong to be skeptical about assumptions one makes, or others make, especially if the empirical grounds are not established yet.

The motivation for my post was the supposed observation that he pushed a button to get extra power, and this could be somehow "seen" in the footage. Also people mentioned that it looked to easy, effortless whatever. So I pointed out that he did look like doing a real hard effort. I am aware of Ebikes giving you more whats rather than a kicker. Why he'd not put that one before he attacks is oblivious to me tough, we only push the "nuke" button before you go. What's the assumption here? Battery power issues?
Because basically to me it follows from what you are saying and what I was aware of so far about "motors" or Ebikes, is that because it provides you only with extra watts, and because you still have to make an effort, one cannot see if it's assisted or not. Yes he sat down for most of the climb, but it's not so that steep passages are always climbed out of the saddle at all. Often enough we see riders sitting through them.
Your points about the abnormality of Pogacars attacks of course still stands, but there we are in the realm of inferences which aren't based on an "eye test" very much at all. And I am not claiming that Ebikes are not a possible explanation for stuff we've seen. But I am saying that given what I so far have read and understood about the matter, I have a really hard time believing that an eye test is gonna get us far. Or the mere fact that a rider is superior on a climb to others. And yes I know he does that regularly, so that it's suspicious in it self, but I am still missing any strong reasons to infer from all of that, that motor doping is going on.

Also the winners bikes often (or even always at bigger races?) get checked for motors. So on Top of inferences about motos, we also have to make inferences about cooperation between everyone who's cheking out the bikes and the cheaters. Or is there a way to construct the scenario otherwise?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1915296463493464242

View: https://x.com/CyclingCoeliac/status/1915296463493464242?s=19

Also

https://twitter.com/x/status/1915330826075619444

View: https://x.com/CyclingCoeliac/status/1915330826075619444?s=19


In my opinion there's no way his shifting gears there. And the eye test is just looking him, pretty comfortably destroying everyone while seated, when others really have to push the pedals to keep moving on the steep wall. For me the look of it is as suspicious as the pressing something on the top of his handlebar. The more I watch it, the more it looks like an unnatural creation of power🤷‍♂️