Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Casual cyclist]

I think it's pretty clear his learned to play the game with the UAE unlimited money backing the system. They have been very carefull building Poggie-boys golden image. I think the money was already in there at the 2020 tour, cause the PDBF TT raised way too little noise in my opinion and look where that has brought us. Covid also brought the financial trouble and nobody wanted to rock the boat. Now we are enjoying this one team, one man sh*tshow over and over again, when it's 100% sure that it's not on a level playing field.

I don't even like Vingo, but please let him beat this Dopacar clown in the Tour, please please!
Or for godsake if you "can't" bust him, please put even the brakes on it.

Good that you mentioned it. When a smaller guy who could not even sit aero on his bike (rode in the "coal miner" position) suddenly started beating TT specialists on the flat part, it screamed "motor" in my view. I went to check this subforum discussion and found a lot of talk about some special 'sauce" and "gas", but nothing about a motor. Only one person who opened an account specially for this purpose in his first -- and last -- message clearly said what was asking to be said. Then he saw that he could not get anyone's attention and left for good. This s also what I did during last year's TDF, but, unlike that guy, stuck around for a bit. This time it was even more obvious, so people got i bit more receptive to the idea.

 

[QueenStagiaire]

Well, he‘s going pretty quick these days, isn‘t he?

 

[Abedfo]

What I think will happen is that the noise of dissent to him making the sport a mockery will rise. Suddenly the powers that be will tire of the cash payoffs and they will nail him. If you're going to win dirty you can't take the piss.

I wonder if the uci will nail some teams mates first as a warning?

 

[YellowSocks]

Well, he‘s going pretty quick these days, isn‘t he?

He's testing his legs.

 

[Medvind]

Crazy *** we are witnessing. In his last race during a tough spring campaign he won in dominant fashion and made the others look like juniors.

And he didn't look tired one bit in the end.

He must really have amazing genes...

 

[Rackham]

I think a lot of people dismiss the idea of an e-bike because the implication is really quite sad tbh and whilst a lot of us have come to terms with the stuff Pantani, Lance and the others did back in the day (aka EPO and blood manipulation), riding around on an electric bike would suggest we've all been wasting our time watching this because that goes way, way beyond cheating and enters the realm of total farce. So obviously most of us do not want to believe that could be true.

And let's face facts here, i.e. if Pogi and UAE are using e-bikes then others must have either considered it or done it as well. Also, whilst we're simply talking about e-bikes here and speculating it's obvious that it's considered 'possible' in some quarters higher up, i.e. never forget that small incident on Loze when the Tour commissaire destroyed Rog's bike after the stage in 2020 whilst looking for a motor. Zeeman even protested and got expelled from the race.

They found nothing but 3 days later Pog wrecked everyone in the ITT.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

I think a lot of people dismiss the idea of an e-bike because the implication is really quite sad tbh and whilst a lot of us have come to terms with the stuff Pantani, Lance and the others did back in the day (aka EPO and blood manipulation), riding around on an electric bike would suggest we've all been wasting our time watching this because that goes way, way beyond cheating and enters the realm of total farce. So obviously most of us do not want to believe that could be true.

Well said. This would be the death of cycling as a sport consisted of competitors propelling bikes with their muscles. In this case it's better to watch MotoGP, those guys are really fast!

 

[Abedfo]

There are others at it too and weird outliers. Tdf wout van aert for instance. Rogilic with a dodgy blood transfusion in 2020 perhaps ? Even remember that tour where alaphillipe was doing insane *** in the GC? Marc Hirshi ? That guy from Bahrain.

There's always an arms race and UAE are at the top, like visma before, sky before that. The difference this time is gianetti and a cold merciless guy called tadej

 

[Casual cyclist]

I think a lot of people dismiss the idea of an e-bike because the implication is really quite sad tbh and whilst a lot of us have come to terms with the stuff Pantani, Lance and the others did back in the day (aka EPO and blood manipulation), riding around on an electric bike would suggest we've all been wasting our time watching this because that goes way, way beyond cheating and enters the realm of total farce. So obviously most of us do not want to believe that could be true.

There is a lot of evidence that specifically Lance did ride around on an electric bike which was behind his miraculous transformation from punchy one day rider and s**t time trialist and mountain climber to the best in both latter disciplines, better even than Ullrich, the Indurain Jr. of sorts.

And let's face facts here, i.e. if Pogi and UAE are using e-bikes then others must have either considered it or done it as well. Also, whilst we're simply talking about e-bikes here and speculating it's obvious that it's considered 'possible' in some quarters higher up, i.e. never forget that small incident on Loze when the Tour commissaire destroyed Rog's bike after the stage in 2020 whilst looking for a motor. Zeeman even protested and got expelled from the race.

They found nothing but 3 days later Pog wrecked everyone in the ITT.

Misread "Rog" as "Pog" and made a somewhat misplaced comment a few min ago. But the main idea could still be similar. This act, first, makes sure Visma does not try same move in the last TT and, second, indirectly covers up for UAE own planned motorized exploit. The possible sceptics would know that "UCI is checking for motors".

 

[Casual cyclist]

There are others at it too and weird outliers. Tdf wout van aert for instance. Rogilic with a dodgy blood transfusion in 2020 perhaps ? Even remember that tour where alaphillipe was doing insane *** in the GC? Marc Hirshi ? That guy from Bahrain.

There's always an arms race and UAE are at the top, like visma before, sky before that. The difference this time is gianetti and a cold merciless guy called tadej

The main advantage appears to lie not so much in Pogoclown's mercilessness, but in the carte blanche paid for with an undisclosed hefty sum (and in the general alignment of the whole "superman" plot with the system's current ideological narrative).

 

[AttaqueDeRolland]

There are others at it too and weird outliers. Tdf wout van aert for instance. Rogilic with a dodgy blood transfusion in 2020 perhaps ? Even remember that tour where alaphillipe was doing insane *** in the GC? Marc Hirshi ? That guy from Bahrain.

There's always an arms race and UAE are at the top, like visma before, sky before that. The difference this time is gianetti and a cold merciless guy called tadej

Stop trying to downplay what Pogi is doing. He's well and truly in Merckx territory, something we thought would be outright impossible in a much more professionalized and scientifically approached sport, where the playing field should, in theory, be more leveled as information on proper training and nutrition has become easily accessible by virtually anyone and the gains should be much more, well, sorry in advance, but ... marginal. Instead, we're seeing almost unparalleled domination. And no, none of the people you mention come close to Pogi's domination. It's Merckx, it's Hinault, it's Coppi. Those are Pogi's peers. The only difference is that Pogi is doing this in an era where the top teams are spending big money to find one extra percent, and then this guy goes out and absolutely smashes the competition. That's not feasible. That's not realistic.

 

[Rackham]

The main advantage appears to lie not so much in Pogoclown's mercilessness, but in the carte blanche paid for with an undisclosed hefty sum (and in the general alignment of the whole "superman" plot with the system's current ideological narrative).

Yeah and this is the other issue, i.e. everyone is splitting hairs and speculating over doping methods and searching for whatever evidence is right in front of us in the actual races but whilst we're at it why not go all the way with the speculation? i.e. if the game is actually rigged with some backroom deals that allow certain teams and riders to dope/cheat/use whatever is necessary then it would render the sport null and void completely. At least as things stand we still believe there's some sort of competition here, even if it's an arms race. Like who uses a tactical blood bag at what moment etc. it's like a twisted meritocracy with immoral participants but it can still be 'fun' from a certain point of view.

E-bikes and/or rigged races would be way, way worse.

Well said. This would be the death of cycling as a sport consisted of competitors propelling bikes with their muscles. In this case it's better to watch MotoGP, those guys are really fast!

Maybe the people who got to witness Ullrich, Pantani and Virenque on the Alpe d'Huez back in the 1997 TdF didn't appreciate the fact that was as good as it was going to get. Like, that right there could have been the pinnacle of this sport - including a biological use of the dark arts of doping.

I'd actually prefer not to believe e-bikes are on the menu in the pro-peloton right now and live in ignorance.

 

[AmRacer]

Stop trying to downplay what Pogi is doing. He's well and truly in Merckx territory, something we thought would be outright impossible in a much more professionalized and scientifically approached sport, where the playing field should, in theory, be more leveled as information on proper training and nutrition has become easily accessible by virtually anyone and the gains should be much more, well, sorry in advance, but ... marginal. Instead, we're seeing almost unparalleled domination. And no, none of the people you mention come close to Pogi's domination. It's Merckx, it's Hinault, it's Coppi. Those are Pogi's peers. The only difference is that Pogi is doing this in an era where the top teams are spending big money to find one extra percent, and then this guy goes out and absolutely smashes the competition. That's not feasible. That's not realistic.

There's one that's equally strong, at least, on some types of parcours. And another one who's performance is unknown, but is expected to be stellar.

 

[AttaqueDeRolland]

There's one that's equally strong, at least, on some types of parcours. And another one who's performance is unknown, but is expected to be stellar.

That's the goddamn point ......

The exact point is that Pogi is doing this on every parcours. That's what puts him in Merckx territory. That's what makes everything he does so utterly unbelievable. That combined with the fashion with which he does it, the attacks from 50 km out, easily riding clear of larger groups working together.

Besides, I'm much more inclined to believe that a rider is supremely specialized and excels at one thing in particular, than I am to believe that a rider can be basically the best at everything, cobbles, climbs, long, sustained efforts, short, explosive efforts, Ardennes, championships, Grand Tours, time trials, gravel, you name it.

But congratulations on furthering my point. I suspect it was unwillingly but thanks all the same.

 

[Casual cyclist]

Yeah and this is the other issue, i.e. everyone is splitting hairs and speculating over doping methods and searching for whatever evidence is right in front of us in the actual races but whilst we're at it why not go all the way with the speculation? i.e. if the game is actually rigged with some backroom deals that allow certain teams and riders to dope/cheat/use whatever is necessary then it would render the sport null and void completely. At least as things stand we still believe there's some sort of competition here, even if it's an arms race. Like who uses a tactical blood bag at what moment etc. it's like a twisted meritocracy with immoral participants but it can still be 'fun' from a certain point of view.

We just saw twice in the last week, exactly how much competition there is. But, as they say, there are always minor placings.

E-bikes and/or rigged races would be way, way worse.

True that. It's pretty bad.

Maybe the people who got to witness Ullrich, Pantani and Virenque on the Alpe d'Huez back in the 1997 TdF didn't appreciate the fact that was as good as it was going to get. Like, that right there could have been the pinnacle of this sport - including a biological use of the dark arts of doping.

That seems to be the truth as well.

I'd actually prefer not to believe e-bikes are on the menu in the pro-peloton right now and live in ignorance.

Which is, as we know, bliss.

 

[AmRacer]

That's the goddamn point ......

The exact point is that Pogi is doing this on every parcours. That's what puts him in Merckx territory. That's what makes everything he does so utterly unbelievable. That combined with the fashion with which he does it, the attacks from 50 km out, easily riding clear of larger groups working together.

Besides, I'm much more inclined to believe that a rider is supremely specialized and excels at one thing in particular, than I am to believe that a rider can be basically the best at everything, cobbles, climbs, long, sustained efforts, short, explosive efforts, Ardennes, championships, Grand Tours, time trials, gravel, you name it.

But congratulations on furthering my point. I suspect it was unwillingly but thanks all the same.

Remco has made a few long range attacks, and knows one thing or two about how to TT.

 

[Amazinmets87]

Yeah and this is the other issue, i.e. everyone is splitting hairs and speculating over doping methods and searching for whatever evidence is right in front of us in the actual races but whilst we're at it why not go all the way with the speculation? i.e. if the game is actually rigged with some backroom deals that allow certain teams and riders to dope/cheat/use whatever is necessary then it would render the sport null and void completely. At least as things stand we still believe there's some sort of competition here, even if it's an arms race. Like who uses a tactical blood bag at what moment etc. it's like a twisted meritocracy with immoral participants but it can still be 'fun' from a certain point of view.

E-bikes and/or rigged races would be way, way worse.



Maybe the people who got to witness Ullrich, Pantani and Virenque on the Alpe d'Huez back in the 1997 TdF didn't appreciate the fact that was as good as it was going to get. Like, that right there could have been the pinnacle of this sport - including a biological use of the dark arts of doping.

I'd actually prefer not to believe e-bikes are on the menu in the pro-peloton right now and live in ignorance.

Don't we know for a fact that races have been rigged to a degree? Deals for stage wins and prize money made on the road, etc.

 

[Rackham]

Don't we know for a fact that races have been rigged to a degree? Deals for stage wins and prize money made on the road, etc.

That's existed for a while. I'm thinking riders buying wins during stages (Virenque paid Ullrich in the aforementioned 97 TdF for example at Courchevel).

But what I'm referring to is the charge that some teams might have bought access to 'advantages' in terms of prep. Like getting free access to all the best illegal goodies whilst others ride around like idiots on whatever limited program they can muster. Aka an advantage acquired behind the scenes and not merely due to their bigger budget but because someone, somewhere has given them carte blanche.

Now that would be a real downer.

 

[pelotonIQ]

I don't even like Vingo, but please let him beat this Dopacar clown in the Tour, please please!
Or for godsake if you "can't" bust him, please put even the brakes on it.

''Pogacar is doping'' but Vingegaard won two tours vs him. The hypocrisy is at it's highest.

 

[QueenStagiaire]

''Pogacar is doping'' but Vingegaard won two tours vs him. The hypocrisy is at it's highest.

So You’re saying he isn‘t doping? Or do you think someone here thinks Vingegaard isn‘t doping?

 

[Ripper]

Remco has made a few long range attacks, and knows one thing or two about how to TT.

Ummm? So what?

Evenepoel has a somewhat predictable power profile and set of 'skills'. Same with van der Poel and others. But Thadijay has the super-skillz: such massive power that he can keep his diminutive frame powering along cobbles beside van der Poel, TT'ing away from TT specialists (even with a pretty crap looking aero position), and beat Skinny Vinnie and all the other skeletons up mountains. It's all a Sunday cruise, he is so far ahead that it's like a pro coming to a weekend ride with some Cat 3/4 racers ... he doesn't need to be in peak form to blow nearly everyone away. And he is working for two super, super corrupt team managers (like seriously, no one comes close to those two).

He looks embarrassed in his interviews

 

[Casual cyclist]

Ummm? So what?

Evenepoel has a somewhat predictable power profile and set of 'skills'. Same with van der Poel and others. But Thadijay has the super-skillz: such massive power that he can keep his diminutive frame powering along cobbles beside van der Poel, TT'ing away from TT specialists (even with a pretty crap looking aero position), and beat Skinny Vinnie and all the other skeletons up mountains. It's all a Sunday cruise, he is so far ahead that it's like a pro coming to a weekend ride with some Cat 3/4 racers ... he doesn't need to be in peak form to blow nearly everyone away. And he is working for two super, super corrupt team managers (like seriously, no one comes close to those two).

He looks embarrassed in his interviews

After that Amstel "embarassment" with just mild "smart" assist at work, Mauro must have dialed it so that a "secret" button press makes pedaling all but optional, and he has to actually pretend he is pushing those pedals.

 

[ivanic]

Stop trying to downplay what Pogi is doing. He's well and truly in Merckx territory, something we thought would be outright impossible in a much more professionalized and scientifically approached sport, where the playing field should, in theory, be more leveled as information on proper training and nutrition has become easily accessible by virtually anyone and the gains should be much more, well, sorry in advance, but ... marginal. Instead, we're seeing almost unparalleled domination. And no, none of the people you mention come close to Pogi's domination. It's Merckx, it's Hinault, it's Coppi. Those are Pogi's peers. The only difference is that Pogi is doing this in an era where the top teams are spending big money to find one extra percent, and then this guy goes out and absolutely smashes the competition. That's not feasible. That's not realistic.

That's not feasible. That's not realistic.

he made another attack seated on the saddle... but did you see? he left world wt riders as if they were amateurs, AMATEURS, he was in Z3, he could go 20 seconds faster on La Redoute

rear wheel with kinetic energy recovery, a 200k € wheel.

 

[Red Rick]

Ummm? So what?

Evenepoel has a somewhat predictable power profile and set of 'skills'. Same with van der Poel and others. But Thadijay has the super-skillz: such massive power that he can keep his diminutive frame powering along cobbles beside van der Poel, TT'ing away from TT specialists (even with a pretty crap looking aero position), and beat Skinny Vinnie and all the other skeletons up mountains. It's all a Sunday cruise, he is so far ahead that it's like a pro coming to a weekend ride with some Cat 3/4 racers ... he doesn't need to be in peak form to blow nearly everyone away. And he is working for two super, super corrupt team managers (like seriously, no one comes close to those two).

He looks embarrassed in his interviews

The most ridiculous bit is Pogacar isn't even that aero on a roadbike. He sits super upright especially going slightly uphill, and if you put him in a breakaway with some conti riders in a flat UAE stage he legit looks like the least aero rider of the lot.

 

[Casual cyclist]

The most ridiculous bit is Pogacar isn't even that aero on a roadbike. He sits super upright especially going slightly uphill, and if you put him in a breakaway with some conti riders in a flat UAE stage he legit looks like the least aero rider of the lot.

Noted many times before. The classic "coal miner" position. No need to inconvenience oneself when there is a "smart" helper in the frame.