Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[ashhutch1997]

The thing is with Hatch etc. they're between a rock and a hard place. Most of them are self employed so why would they start shouting the odds? Plus they do that and they're open to liable stuff.

The problem is doping just isn't mentioned anymore, like it doesn't exist. Lance and team Sky were hammered for years for far more human performances compared to Pog.

 

[ivanic]

We've been seeing this obscenity almost weekly for years now.
This goes beyond any cyclist who's been caught or has been cheating.
And no one asks: what has to happen for journalists and the media to take a stand against him? Does he have to ride a 500cc?

 

[ashhutch1997]

We've been seeing this obscenity almost weekly for years now.
This goes beyond any cyclist who's been caught or has been cheating.
And no one asks: what has to happen for journalists and the media to take a stand against him? Does he have to ride a 500cc?

Unfortunately in 2026, you aren't allowed to question the mainstream natative. Would love to have a David Wash or Paul Kimmage.

 

[AlpRaid]

1 minute and 15 seconds cut off his Redoute time from 2021 (when he also won).

25% improvement.

EPO territory and beyond. And his manager is Gianetti FFS.

LOL!

 

[onefortheroad]

Why credit to Seixas though? I'm pretty sure in a couple of years everyone is going to be extremely bored of him winning everything.

Just for being the "new kid on the block" delivering such a fantastic performance.
I suspect it will take quite a lot for him to even start bothering Pogi consistently, but we shall see. Time will tell if he can actually reach the ridiculous levels of dominance we see in Pogi.

 

[AlpRaid]

Just for being the "new kid on the block" delivering such a fantastic performance.
I suspect it will take quite a lot for him to even start bothering Pogi consistently, but we shall see. Time will tell if he can actually reach the ridiculous levels of dominance we see in Pogi.

At least he was a prodigy at a young age. And he’s doing this while on a French team under French laws. Much more believable.

 

[ashhutch1997]

Why credit to Seixas though? I'm pretty sure in a couple of years everyone is going to be extremely bored of him winning everything.

We'll moan about that in the future. But I'm at the stage where the more mutants the better, I just want to watch a competitive race.

 

[Divergence]

The problem is doping just isn't mentioned anymore, like it doesn't exist. Lance and team Sky were hammered for years for far more human performances compared to Pog.

The difference is that people knew exactly what Lance was doing. Everybody who was not blind knew about EPO, about blood transfusion, testosterone and what not. Can you point out to what they are doing nowadays?

 

[ColonelKidneyBeans]

The difference is that people knew exactly what Lance was doing. Everybody who was not blind knew about EPO, about blood transfusion, testosterone and what not. Can you point out to what they are doing nowadays?

Well, probably EPO, blood transfusions and testosterone for starters, there's still quite a bit of wiggle room to get away with it. On top of that? Synthetic hemoglobin or other novel blood manipulations techniques (like siRNA targeting EGLN/PHD), HGH/IGF-1,... i could go on and on.

 

[Nomad]

WADA has become more proficient at detecting EPO microdosing. Blood transfusions easily trip the ABP (the ABP is very sensitive to transfusions - that was it's main purpose when it was designed back in 2008).

On testosterone, the CIRC test can detect even very small amounts of synthetic testosterone (the test can distinguish between natural occurring cholesterol-based testosterone vs plant-based derived synthetic testosterone). No need to rely on the old-fashioned T/E ration test which sets a limit of 4:1 T/E ratio for a positive. Plus there's the ABP steroid module that'll pick up small amounts of anabolic steroids even the compounds with short glow times.

IMO, I just don't see how biological doping can be used effectively these days unless teams/riders are paying off authorities to look the other way?

 

[houtdffan]

1 minute and 15 seconds cut off his Redoute time from 2021 (when he also won).

25% improvement.

EPO territory and beyond. And his manager is Gianetti FFS.

LOL!

this is more like 300 Ferrari horse power territory

Maybe he can lend his engine to Lewis Hamilton, LOL

 

[Cookster15]

IMO, I just don't see how biological doping can be used effectively these days unless teams/riders are paying off authorities to look the other way?

Well, it took 8 years for biological doping to snare Juan José Cobo after he beat Froome at the 2011 Vuelta? The ABP is too slow IMO. Ben Johnson was caught within 3 days of "winning" the 1988 Olympic 100 metre race. A 3 day turnaround for blood doping would be a much better deterrent in pro cycling and other endurance based sports.

I think the issue is samples are compared to a riders historical results (the passport) and a software red flags any anomalies. Those anomalies are then looked at by a team of qualified persons. If judged to be beyond reasonable doubt an adverse finding is found. While it might be scientifically sound, it is certainly takes more time to prove to courts than a simple synthetic EPO or anabolic steroids test.

But if Pogacar does have an unfair advantage I think blood manipulation is much more likely than motors as keeps popping up here.

 

[MountainGoatW]

It is a clownshow these days 🤡💉🔋and then they are rubbing it on our faces with Dracula-Gianetti celebrating on the finnish line. Like seriously nobody asks questions these days🤡like the guy how was talented, but not generational keeps winning everything and in all terrain. Every win these days come with an asteriks. I guess it is the UCI and UAE connection, money talks and *** walks.

 

[ColonelKidneyBeans]

WADA has become more proficient at detecting EPO microdosing. Blood transfusions easily trip the ABP (the ABP is very sensitive to transfusions - that was it's main purpose when it was designed back in 2008).

On testosterone, the CIRC test can detect even very small amounts of synthetic testosterone (the test can distinguish between natural occurring cholesterol-based testosterone vs plant-based derived synthetic testosterone). No need to rely on the old-fashioned T/E ration test which sets a limit of 4:1 T/E ratio for a positive. Plus there's the ABP steroid module that'll pick up small amounts of anabolic steroids even the compounds with short glow times.

IMO, I just don't see how biological doping can be used effectively these days unless teams/riders are paying off authorities to look the other way?

The ABP is pretty good in theory, but how well does it work in practice? Kreuziger got out of a sanction, there's plenty of scientific literature criticising it, we've seen the highly suspicious self published blood values of Horner from the 2013 Vuelta remain unsanctioned, Juanjo Cobo as mentionned above...
It only applies to the pros too, so you could try to establish an artificially high baseline on younger athletes by using blood doping before they are enrolled.

Regarding testosterone, afaik the isotope ratio test is not used routinely because it's expensive, it's more of a "smoking gun" when suspicions are high because of a high T/E ratio or of anomalies in the steroid module.

 

[Raest]

I tend to think that the bigger issue here, is the sponsor itself. How can you compete against one of the richest oil countries? Every other cycling team have to fight to attract and maintain sponsors that may choose to leave early and have limited budgets (even the bigger ones). Gianetti picks up the phone and asks for another check. This can buy you the best riders, equipment, support (technical and medical) and influence.
I get it that it's always been the case, not just in cycling, but this takes it to a whole new level. They are going after Seixas now, in the end every major race will be contested among their riders only, noone else will have a chance.
The UCI should think about imposing some sort of budget or salary cap. Not that I expect them to do that, they are gorging themselves on UAE money too

 

[Divergence]

Well, probably EPO, blood transfusions and testosterone for starters, there's still quite a bit of wiggle room to get away with it. On top of that? Synthetic hemoglobin or other novel blood manipulations techniques (like siRNA targeting EGLN/PHD), HGH/IGF-1,... i could go on and on.

It is not quite the same now is it? For example in 98 there was the Festina scandal (not that people did not have concrete evidence before). Nowadays it is all speculation, nobody has been caught with anything. Now you might say this or that but these are the facts.

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

It is not quite the same now is it? For example in 98 there was the Festina scandal (not that people did not have concrete evidence before). Nowadays it is all speculation, nobody has been caught with anything. Now you might say this or that but these are the facts.

There are almost no positives, and hardly any cases of anyone being busted with PEDs. So it's the perfect moment to look away and market the sport as clean once again. There is very little incentive I fear, to change anything about it, beause the last time was a catastrophe for the sport in terms of attention, sponsors, teams, races etc.
But you are not wrong. Almost all we have are plausibility arguments and historical comparisons or actors to point to.

 

[ColonelKidneyBeans]

It is not quite the same now is it? For example in 98 there was the Festina scandal (not that people did not have concrete evidence before). Nowadays it is all speculation, nobody has been caught with anything. Now you might say this or that but these are the facts.

The 99 tour after the Festina affait was sold as "le tour du renouveau". It was almost just rumors and speculations before Puerto or Landis blowing the whistle. And they ended up being mostly true. I don't really see the difference between now and then, quite the opposite the more i think about it.

 

[SorelyBoy]

If you look at all the circumstantial evidence, it is pretty evident that cycling has got itself into a right mess again. The recent Marc Soler related incident alone is a massive wake up call that something is seriously off. So reminiscent of years gone by that one. But should it be that surprising? Human nature never changes really, the same personality types are still there, even some of the very same people who were found to have cheated before yet have been allowed to continue to pollute the sport and spread their corrupting influence. Cycling seemed to do much better for a while, but never really cleaned up its problems completely. The more things change the more they stay the same I guess. To wit, the guys currently at the top are probably just doing it better than everyone else, and that means on all parts of the programme including compromising or at least evading the detection systems. Wakey wakey folks, this is merely history repeating, albeit the complexity and scope of the processes involved are now on a different level. A level that ultimately only money, lots of money, can buy.

 

[Divergence]

The 99 tour after the Festina affait was sold as "le tour du renouveau". It was almost just rumors and speculations before Puerto or Landis blowing the whistle. And they ended up being mostly true. I don't really see the difference between now and then, quite the opposite the more i think about it.

Well, the difference is that even though that is how it was marketed it was widely known that EPO was still being used even after the Festina scandal. Nowadays, I do not believe EPO or blood transfusions are being done. I do not know what is being done and that is why I am saying it is different nowadays. To be clear, I do think that they are still using some grey area stuff and possibly some illegal stuff but I do not know exactly what is is and there are no credible rumors either. The most credible one was the CO rebreather as fast as as I can tell, but I think that stopped as well.

 

[ColonelKidneyBeans]

Well, the difference is that even though that is how it was marketed it was widely known that EPO was still being used even after the Festina scandal. Nowadays, I do not believe EPO or blood transfusions are being done. I do not know what is being done and that is why I am saying it is different nowadays. To be clear, I do think that they are still using some grey area stuff and possibly some illegal stuff but I do not know exactly what is is and there are no credible rumors either. The most credible one was the CO rebreather as fast as as I can tell, but I think that stopped as well.

Speculation was also rampant during the 200x, the EPO test was introduced in 2001, OFF score monitoring in 2002-2003 iirc, the question then was "how do they manage to work around that?"

I believe operation Aderlass has proven that old school blood doping is still doable without triggering the passport or an AAF and was done at least up to the end of the 201x. If you look at the biggest busts (Festina, Puerto, Aderlass, Armstrong, the 2008 tour) it was almost never due to some antidoping test, but because someone talked/the police got involved.

The only exception to that is the 2008 tour but curiously that year the UCI/WADA weren't involved, it was the FFC/AFLD, and they had an ace up their sleeve with their undisclosed ability to detect CERA.